rough dragon model

[Roger]

OK

 

Well, he's not exactly cute or endearing yet, I think the pupils are too tiny.....

 

And I still have a few things to add.

 

I think I will just give him paddle feet, or modify the hands and make feet out of those.

 

I've made horns, I just didn't bother to put them on. I'll be putting some decals on him

at some point, nothing too fancy just something to punch him up a bit. He'll still be clay shaded.

 

One thing I am not entirely happy with is the snout....this one is true to my original sketches,

I didn't want to have a beak or anything with teeth, like an alligator or t-rex.

 

I guess I could give him like a little anteater mouth with a tounge that flops out and one or 2 teeth.

I didn't pay a lot of attention to the mouth as I don't intend to have him lip sync anything, just maybe

sniffle and snort.

 

thoughts?[attachmentid=18253]

[Roger]

I am working on a penguin now, I have one half the way I want it but need to do a copy/flip/attach and despite help from some of the forum, it just does not seem to be working. I think the problem might be that the spline that makes up the vertical cross-section is not one continuous spline---I have posted some screencaps of the geometry to illustrate (feel free to point out anything else that might cause issues)

 

How do I go about fixing this?

 

I would have started a new WIP but thought I'd go back to an old one. I would prefer to start a new one and consolidate everything under it but I guess I'll just use this one.

 

-Roger

[TheSpleen]

the green guy needs another leg.

creates great opportunities in locomotion.

Cool character.

[robcat2075]

How do I go about fixing this?

 

I don't know that this is the problem but in the interest of good splinesmanship that center spline shouldn't divert down the leg. That should be a spline that continues under the crotch and back up the back.

 

Fix that first and see what happens.

[Roger]

How do I go about fixing this?

 

I don't know that this is the problem but in the interest of good splinesmanship that center spline shouldn't divert down the leg. That should be a spline that continues under the crotch and back up the back.

 

Fix that first and see what happens.

 

 

Yeah, I'm not sure why that happened. I made the body by extruding a circle, then when I got a rough penguin shape, went back and cut it in half so I could model one of the legs as and then CFA as opposed to trying to get them to match. I have another version of the penguin but it has no flipper, and I'm not happy w/ the legs, and I'd have to do a CFA anyway to get the flipper on the other side once I model it. I am going to try deleting the crotch as you suggested and see if that handles the continuity issue.

 

Roger

[johnl3d]

heres a penguin I attempted once

 

http://www.hash.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=35429

[Roger]

Here is the penguin after the cfa (but w/ no legs right now)

 

 

I verified that the splines down the center are a continuous. However, does anyone see anything that jumps out as being obviously bad (too much/ too little detail in the wrong areas) ?

The flippers seem wrong to me, like maybe they're not wide enough and there are too many cross sections.

 

I still need to model eye sockets, a beak, legs/feet, and a tail.

 

Thoughts on a beak? I was thinking just a simple, solid beak, since this character doesn't say anything but maybe it would be better for me to make an actual hand-puppet type beak.

 

Anyway, things are coming along.

[robcat2075]

Here is the penguin after the cfa (but w/ no legs right now)

 

 

I verified that the splines down the center are a continuous. However, does anyone see anything that jumps out as being obviously bad (too much/ too little detail in the wrong areas) ?

I think the splines that cross the chest that are continuations of splines from the flippers are more than you need. You could terminate those with hooks near the base of the flippers.

 

 

The flippers seem wrong to me, like maybe they're not wide enough and there are too many cross sections.

find some reference photos of penguins to compare.

[TheSpleen]

deffinantly the puppet beak.

Ya never know if he needs to pick something up or not.

[Roger]

Hello, decided to rework my dragon model as I lost backups - and I wasn't happy w/ it to begin w/ anyway. I am ditching the quad legs since I think it will be easier to animate. I also

have been doing some of the tutorials in my spare time to fill in the gaps in my knowledge, and modelling is getting easier - at least, I am having an easier time figuring out how to

keep splines continuous when joining limbs to the body.

 

I have just about got his leg attached, and think I can finish the holes w/ 5 point patches - however, I don't think AM is crazy about having 5 point patches adjacent to each other, and

that's causing some problems. I can put a 4 point patch between them, but then I'm having to carry the extra splines all the way down the leg --since I can't seem to get a

solid patch w/o doing that.

 

I am posting 2 pics, let me know if you have any ideas.

 

Roger

[Roger]

Ok-

 

I don't think this looks too bad. I used 5 point patches near the shoulders and hips, I think it looks ok - not perfect, but then what is?

I think it will be easier to animate than the old quad leg setup.

 

Posting a screencap, let me know what you think.

 

Roger

[robcat2075]

dont' dead end a spline with a CP...

 

continue it to a hook...

 

[Roger]

Ok - thought everyone might like to see an update of the body - I think it looks much better than the old one. I have been working on this since about 1pm CT and my brain is fried. Going to take a break.

 

 

What is the etiquette regarding WIP posts? I really want to start a new one w/ my tentative title as the subject, since it will be easier to find when searching. I know I have like 4 different WIP threads going, I may put links to the old ones in the new one but I want to consolidate everything in one thread.

 

Thanks to everyone that has helped.

[robcat2075]

Go ahead with a new WIP thread if you're done with the others' focus.

 

One item that bothers me is the front of the ankle where it meets the foot. It seems like that center spline could be more forward to make the ankle rounder?

[Roger]

Go ahead with a new WIP thread if you're done with the others' focus.

 

One item that bothers me is the front of the ankle where it meets the foot. It seems like that center spline could be more forward to make the ankle rounder?

 

 

Yeah, I think you're right. I may need to take another look at that. I am not sure but I think that spline that makes up the front of the ankle may end in a hook, which may make it tough to adjust. I'll have another look at it tomorrow.

[Roger]

Robcat,

 

Making some adjustments to my penguin, I used some hooks so as to not carry the splines all the way across the chest (as you suggested) but it looks a little funky. They did not want to attach at the points that would have made for the straightest lines. What do you think? I can't use hooks any earlier in without messing up the 5 point patches right where the flipper attaches to the chest.

 

Roger

[robcat2075]

I avoid two hooks on the same spline. I'd carry the top one thru to be a hook on the next spline.

 

That will make both hooks end in the middle of a spline which seems to work best.

 

Hooks can attach at the 1/4, 1/2, and 3/4 point of a spline but 1/2 is best.

[Roger]

I avoid two hooks on the same spline. I'd carry the top one thru to be a hook on the next spline.

 

That will make both hooks end in the middle of a spline which seems to work best.

 

Hooks can attach at the 1/4, 1/2, and 3/4 point of a spline but 1/2 is best.

 

 

Ok, that looks a little better I guess. Still a bit on the funky side, but I gues I can live w/ it. At least this is eventually going to have a clay shader applied to it, so I guess it doesn't have to be perfect. I still am trying to get that "crisp" look though. I guess I just want the geometry to look nice, regardless of the surfacing that is eventually applied. I know no one but me will notice, though.

 

What do you think?

[robcat2075]

no, the other top spline.

[Roger]

no, the other top spline.

 

 

So carry the one above through, and cut the one that I have going through currently off short?

 

I'm a little confused.

[Roger]

Here- is this what you were getting at?

[robcat2075]

Here- is this what you were getting at?

 

yes, that's it. although I suppose when you do the other side that might as well be a CP instead of a hook. Slide it to about half way between the other splines.

[Roger]

Here- is this what you were getting at?

 

yes, that's it. although I suppose when you do the other side that might as well be a CP instead of a hook. Slide it to about half way between the other splines.

 

 

I'm working on cleaning up my penguin model still, and every time I try to do a copy/flip/attach now, it is causing AM to crash. Do I need to go back to an earlier model? Or start over even?

[robcat2075]

Does CFA crash on all models or just this one? Make sure you have "mirror " mode off.

 

 

Just to try.... copy the mesh to a new blank model and try CFA there.

[Roger]

Does CFA crash on all models or just this one? Make sure you have "mirror " mode off.

 

 

Just to try.... copy the mesh to a new blank model and try CFA there.

 

 

It seems to be just this model. But I haven't tried anything else yet. I think what is causing it is the splines on the chest, because it was doing some funky things with those (the ones that ended in hooks) - so I have gone back to an earlier model with the extra splines across the chest.

I can always get rid of them later.

 

I am having a heck of a time deciding on how to put the legs in - I'm posting a screenshot of how I'm thinking of hooking them into he rest of the model. What do you think?

[Roger]

Does CFA crash on all models or just this one? Make sure you have "mirror " mode off.

 

 

Just to try.... copy the mesh to a new blank model and try CFA there.

 

 

It seems to be just this model. But I haven't tried anything else yet. I think what is causing it is the splines on the chest, because it was doing some funky things with those (the ones that ended in hooks) - so I have gone back to an earlier model with the extra splines across the chest.

I can always get rid of them later.

 

I am having a heck of a time deciding on how to put the legs in - I'm posting a screenshot of how I'm thinking of hooking them into he rest of the model. What do you think?

 

Actually, I think I got it right the first time, for once. I just made the hole for the leg and it looks good. Going to try extruding the leg out and see how it looks - I'll post in a bit.

[robcat2075]

Is this the penguin still? Don't Penguin legs come out of the bottom?

[Roger]

Is this the penguin still? Don't Penguin legs come out of the bottom?

 

 

Yeah, I guess they do and that's the way I had it the first time but I just couldn't get it to look right. But now that I think about it, this is going to look worse.

 

Last time I did this, I had put 2 holes for the legs on the bottom of the bird, then closed things off w/ 5 point patches and then extruded the legs out. It looked ok, but there was something funky about it.

 

Do you have any suggestions?

[Roger]

Ok - this is what I have so far and is more or less how I did things the last time. However now I am working with like 10 points on the bottom

ring, which is going to make for some wierdness attaching these legs.

[Roger]

This looks ok but I am concerned when I delete one half of the model and try to copy/flip/attach that I am going to have problems.

Last time I had nothing but trouble from the center spline that made up the crotch.

 

Here's a screenshot:

[robcat2075]

[Roger]

Yeah I started doing something like that but I needed more geometry to shape the legs, so I ended up adding some extra points to the leg holes.

I think it looks ok, let me know what you think.

[pixelplucker]

Getting there.

 

What I found to be easier, not sure if it will work for you, is to model the complex parts such as a hand, food etc then stitch them together. In other words start with the tough parts and position them where they should go then connect them together to make the body. I sometimes get lost trying to start with a base body and attempt to make something from that and get the results I like.

 

A good tutorial to follow is the make a face. I personally found that to me one of the most valuable of all the modeling tutorials.

 

You will find that the flip copy attach will kill 5 point patches that are connected to the middle spline so don't put those in until your done. Also Hooks will get goofy if they share a patch that uses the center spline as well so do those last too.

[Roger]

Getting there.

 

What I found to be easier, not sure if it will work for you, is to model the complex parts such as a hand, food etc then stitch them together. In other words start with the tough parts and position them where they should go then connect them together to make the body. I sometimes get lost trying to start with a base body and attempt to make something from that and get the results I like.

 

A good tutorial to follow is the make a face. I personally found that to me one of the most valuable of all the modeling tutorials.

 

You will find that the flip copy attach will kill 5 point patches that are connected to the middle spline so don't put those in until your done. Also Hooks will get goofy if they share a patch that uses the center spline as well so do those last too.

 

 

That's generally what I try to do, hands, heads, and feet get modelled separately. Other than that, it is not always clear how to proceed.

I try to make my body and limb segments out of cross sections with 6 points ( as opposed to 8 or 10 ) to keep spline density down. I have found fewer than that makes it hard to sculpt the limbs, more than that is unwieldy. And an even number of points as opposed to odd, because then it is a pain trying to attach a hand made up of a 6 point extruded ring to a 7 point wrist.

 

No matter what I do, I can never seem to get the perfect immaculately smooth models that others do - I don't know if I'm making models that are too dense still and that is the problem, or if there is something else I'm doing wrong. I try to avoid 3 point patches whenever possible, but it is harder for me to avoid 5 pointers. Maybe I'm not using hooks enough. Maybe I'm worried too much about having an ultra-perfect model, when it is going to have clay shaders applied to it and is supposed to look a little imperfect.

 

I have done the Giraffe tutorial, the Cooper tutorial, and the Fokker tutorial (as well as some of the simpler ones - the flower, for instance) and found that helped clear some things up. I have the Animation:Master: A complete Guide by David Rogers that I am going to start going through because I know rigging my models (as simple as the penguin is - it is essentially a sack with stubby feet and flippers) is going to be a nightmare.

 

I appreciate the help and feedback that Rob and others have given. Hopefully before too much longer I will have some animation tests to show everyone.

[Roger]

Anyway - here is an example of what I was talking about. I continued the leg splines up the back and ended them in hooks to help smooth some things out -it looks perfect on the back of the penguin but on the front I end up with wierd artifacts. You can see what I am talking about if you look at the patch/patches just above the leg on the right if you are looking at the front of the penguin. Before both the front left and right patches were doing that, now it is just the one. Not sure what is causing this, the geometry on the front is the exact same as the back. I have posted screenshots. The one on the left is the penguin front, the one on the right is the back.

[pixelplucker]

Much of the smoothness is when people are using certain materials that mask the artifacts from close splines, SSS and one of the ceramic mats will subdue the edges.

 

Without the use of the materials it takes hours to tweak cp's and bias handles to really smooth things out. Most of my models I use 4 segment lathe when possible but it does make stitching together a bit tougher.

 

Do some sketches of your body parts then you can draw over them where you want the splines, this may help sort it out. Character modeling is tough in any program and especially difficult in Nurbs and Splines where you need to create patches of detail and put them seamlessly together.

 

One big tip, use lots of pigtails. It is easy to connect to pigtails together then delete the middle cp rather than attempting to connect directly and risk a tangled spline. Deleting the extra cp also seems to let the neighboring cp's relax to compensate and this seems to help a bit in smoothing. Unlike polygon verticies, cps' have 6 directions of influence.

[pixelplucker]

got a breather between jobs and whipped this up, not many pics on the web of penguin feet but maybe you can modify this one to suite your needs.

 

I dwindled the top down to 4 cps so you can blend it easier. If you have more points to connect with you can just delete a couple of hooks and continue those.

bird_foot.mdl

[steve392]

Thats a nice foot ,nice and smooth

[Roger]

Thats a nice foot ,nice and smooth

 

 

Pixelplucker, that is a gorgeous foot and if you did that on a break I am even more impressed. I am not sure I feel comfortable using it though, but the offer is very kind. I am attempting to do as much of this myself as I can and my chars are meant to be on the less realistic end of the spectrum (think Wallace and Gromit as opposed to Shrek).

 

I would like to have a look at it for learning purposes though.

 

 

What is a pigtail ( in modelling terms) ? I don't think I've heard of that before. Also, do you use 4 CPs for the body or just the limbs? That might make things a little easier, in terms of there being less to kep track of.

[pixelplucker]

Thanks,

 

You can use that foot or modify it as you like. It was basically made of 5 lathe objects (4 toes and nails and the leg) all stitched together.

 

A pig tail is when you extend a spline and leave a trailing cp. This allows you to connect the previous cp's and not have the ends create loops. When you create your splines it doesn't hurt to just click one more time to create your pigtail, it is easy enough to delete them later.

[Roger]

Its a foot....

 

What do you think? Again, I'm going for fairly simple but I can't help thinking its missing something.

[robcat2075]

Its a foot....

 

What do you think? Again, I'm going for fairly simple but I can't help thinking its missing something.

 

The ankle looks very thick compared to the width of the foot.

 

You might look at some cartoon penguins for reference and see how the simplified the form.

[pixelplucker]

The foot I made is actually closer to a penguins foot, they don't have big webbed feet like a duck because they swim subsurface and acutally use their wings as flippers.

 

When I googled up some penguin feet I found just a couple of images that I worked from. You can modify what I made and exagerate the webbing if you like. I was surprised when researched the feet.

[Roger]

Pixelplucker,

 

 

Did some google image searches and your foot is very close - didn't realize how clawlike they are. Although I didn't see any w/ the rear spur/nail though.

How do you get your 4 pt. holes to be so circular? Usually it takes me 6 points to get it to look like a proper circle.

 

I am going to play around w/ min and see if I can't get it a little closer to what I've found, using those images as well as your foot for reference.

 

Roger

[pixelplucker]

I had a pic that showed a rear claw, the foot is the same as other 3 toed birds. Climbing birds would have 2 toes in front 2 in back like a parrot, the rest have 3 front and 1 in back which include ducks etc but those have extreme webs.

 

I use the lathe tool to make my nice circular 4 point shapes, simply make a couple of clicks from center then lathe it. You can extrude one end out as you like from there.

[Roger]

Ok

 

 

After some tweaking, I am pretty pleased with this. It is starting to look a lot more like a penguin foot. Not perfect, but not bad for about 20 minutes.

Still needs some more work, but looking good. I like it a lot more than the first version.

 

Roger

[Roger]

Pixelplucker,

 

 

I looked again at some of the photos I found - you are right, there is a 4th claw...however, in the photos I found, the fourth digit which is very small, appearing almost vestigial. Its no wonder I missed it. On other penguin breeds, it may be much larger and located more to the rear. I think all the photos I found were of Adelie penguins.

 

Anyway, let me know what you think.

[Roger]

This is probably it for tonight - I think I need to scale down the ankle so it is thinner, as Rob suggested. And I ned to add some nails for the toes, maybe try and scuplt some webbing (or not, it looks ok and probably no one will ever see it).

 

 

I think this is much closer to what I was going for.

[pixelplucker]

Looks like it's coming along

Good work!

[Roger]

Thought everyone would be interested in seeing the feet attached to the body. (I really need to start working on a more regular basis, last post was almost a month ago)

Anyway, here it is.