rough dragon model

[pixelplucker]

I like them, good job.

[robcat2075]

Thought everyone would be interested in seeing the feet attached to the body. (I really need to start working on a more regular basis, last post was almost a month ago)

Anyway, here it is.

 

Post wire and i bet that can be made smoother.

[Roger]

Here is a shaded wireframe closeup of the feet and legs. I am not sure how much time it makes sense to spend on smoothing it out, it is meant to look like a clay model after all. Feel free to make suggestions, but I don't want to invest a ton of time on fixing that part of the model. I am going to be working on the beak/face today and will hopefully have a more or less complete model to post.

[robcat2075]

but clay is smooth, it doesn't have creases.

 

[Roger]

but clay is smooth, it doesn't have creases.

 

 

 

I guess it depends on how the surface is deformed when you are modelling with actual modelling clay. But I suppose it needs to be tightened up.

 

I am working on eye sockets right now, but currently it looks like its going to be way too close together. What do you think?

[Eric2575]

Roger:

 

I looked for my three toed tutorial and found it, but it's long and boring since it's one of my first tutorials ever from a long time ago. I'll remake it and post it on Youtube soon. It will help you not only with the foot, but with overall modeling and smooth skin. I had a recent hard drive crash on me, so I have to reinstall my screen cap software among other things. It looks like you've been pretty patient about finishing this model anyway

 

Eric

[Roger]

Roger:

 

I looked for my three toed tutorial and found it, but it's long and boring since it's one of my first tutorials ever from a long time ago. I'll remake it and post it on Youtube soon. It will help you not only with the foot, but with overall modeling and smooth skin. I had a recent hard drive crash on me, so I have to reinstall my screen cap software among other things. It looks like you've been pretty patient about finishing this model anyway

 

Eric

 

 

You don't need to go to all that trouble on my account, but it would probably help me. I always have problems trying to join geometry w/ odd numbers of points. I try to keep my segments (for lack of a better term) w/ even numbers of points. I think I more or less fixed this spot, there probably is a more elegant way it could have been done. I have attached a screen cap of the fixed foot. And yes, I suppose my progress could at best be described as glacial. I don't have an excuse for that, I guess I need to come up with a schedule for this project and stick to it. Reality always seems to have a way of intruding, though.

[Roger]

Ok - here it is so far: eye sockets, attached feet etc.

I still need to add a few details: bow, beak, eyeballs, maybe a suggestion of breasts?? ( I know of course this is silly but am wanting it to be obviously feminine)

[robcat2075]

that looks improved!

Ok - here it is so far: eye sockets, attached feet etc.

I still need to add a few details: bow, beak, eyeballs, maybe a suggestion of breasts?? ( I know of course this is silly but am wanting it to be obviously feminine)

I'd skip the breasts and do thick eyelashes instead

[Roger]

that looks improved!

Ok - here it is so far: eye sockets, attached feet etc.

I still need to add a few details: bow, beak, eyeballs, maybe a suggestion of breasts?? ( I know of course this is silly but am wanting it to be obviously feminine)

I'd skip the breasts and do thick eyelashes instead

 

 

Thank you I'm starting to get the hang of where to use hooks and my 5 point patches seem to be fewer. I don't have many 3 pointers any more, at least. And no more splines looping back in on themselves. Ugh.

 

I am probably done for today, I should hopefully be able to get close to finishing this model by tomorrow. I want to try and enter the Christmas contest - I've never entered one, I figure I probably won't win but its good incentive to stay on track. As long as the deadline is the 20th of Dec. or so I should make it.

[Roger]

Updated dragon feet -

 

 

I haven't spent nearly as much time on this yet this week as I'd have liked, but I have been tweaking the feet on my dragon, specifically the ankle/heel region. I think the foot on the left looks markedly better. I am going to make a few more tweaks, maybe add some nails/claws to the toes. I think its just about right but maybe needs to be a little narrower. Once I get that foot closer to where I want it I am going to delete the other half of the model and do another CFA (thank god for copy/paste I would hate to have to sculpt one side then the other)

 

I have attached a screenshot of the new foot w/ the old one in frame for reference.

[Roger]

Well, my main character is just about done, here is a screenshot:

[Roger]

Rigging my models now - following the Dave Roger's book as a general guideline, using my model instead of the one from the book.

 

I have created a rig for the left leg so far, and am trying to copy it so that I don't have to redo it for the right-hand side. The tutorial I am following says to hold down the alt-key and click and drag in the PWS but when I do that all I end up doing is screwing up the hierarchy of my bones. I also tried to do this in one of the bones windows but that did also not work. Any ideas what I might be doing wrong?

[pixelplucker]

The TSM2 rig or 2008 rig can work well for the dragon and if you used cfa on the model so that it is symetrical then the mirror bones should work perfectly. Simply rig one half and do the cp assignments and weighting then mirror the bones.

 

2008 rig has a nice easy to follow instructions and is actually easier to use than the 2001 rig that comes with AM.

TSM2 uses double bones that translate into single controllers and can be a little confusing if your new at it but has a big advantage for rigging non-biped creatures.

 

With both rigs it is important to use the transform tools when told to do so in the instructions so that the balance rigs are in the correct spot.

[Roger]

The TSM2 rig or 2008 rig can work well for the dragon and if you used cfa on the model so that it is symetrical then the mirror bones should work perfectly. Simply rig one half and do the cp assignments and weighting then mirror the bones.

 

2008 rig has a nice easy to follow instructions and is actually easier to use than the 2001 rig that comes with AM.

TSM2 uses double bones that translate into single controllers and can be a little confusing if your new at it but has a big advantage for rigging non-biped creatures.

 

With both rigs it is important to use the transform tools when told to do so in the instructions so that the balance rigs are in the correct spot.

 

 

This may sound like a dumb question, but where can I find the 2008 rig? Did it come w/ the AM subscription I downloaded, or do I need to look for it on the ftp site?

[steve392]

Here it is

http://www.hash.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=33795

[Roger]

Here it is

http://www.hash.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=33795

 

 

Will this work w/ v15? I saw a v13 installer -

[itsjustme]

Here it is

http://www.hash.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=33795

 

 

Will this work w/ v15? I saw a v13 installer -

 

Yes, it will work from v13 to the present version...the model file changed at v13, so it can't be used prior to that.

[Roger]

I am rigging my penguin right now - I plan on using the 2008 rig for the dragon, but decided I wanted to try my hand at rigging at least one character by hand ( I am assuming I am still going to have to modify the 2008 rig for my main char, anyway) as a learning experience.

 

Does the placement of the bones seem about right? I thought about putting 3 bones in the arm (upper arm, forearm, and hand) but 2 seem like they will work just as well.

[pixelplucker]

You can rig by hand from scratch but you will spend an easy gazzillion hours because you need to created balance rigs and all their relationships as well as the controllers, fan bones and so on and have the ability to switch from ik to fk.

The idea behind having rigs such as 2001, 2008 and TSM2 is to speed up the process that is often redundant. The 2001 and 2008 rigs have fixed bone names and allow actions to be transfered from one character to another though the 2001 and 2008 are not compatible with each other in that sense. This means if you use the 2008 and make a walk cycle, run and so on in actions you can use those actions on other characters with 2008 rig. You may have to tweak them according to the character but the base work is done and can be recycled.

 

The TSM2 is a unique rigging system that directly addresses the problem with rigging anything other than a biped. It is a specialized system that allows tails, wings, various number of appendages and so on.

 

I don't doubt your abilities I would suggest rigging it in the 2008 first and get the weighting down pat and familiarize yourself with how it is constructed before leaping off the ledge and trying all from scratch. I thought I could make a rig from scratch and found out it horribly complex, time consuming and the tweaking involved is immense.

[robcat2075]

A:M bones don't need to be physically attached to their parents. I'd move the upper leg bones to a more anatomically useful position like this:

 

 

 

The advantage of a known rig is that someone has figured out how to make it do all the things that rigs need to do. Like being able to move the hips without dragging the feet from where you wanted them to stay. And 100 other things.

 

You still have to install it and weight your CPS, but you don't have to reinvent those 100 things from scratch.

[Roger]

I see what you mean regarding bone placement. That does make way more sense.

 

 

I downloaded the 2008 rig and it seems nice, but there is like a 77 page PDF w/ it that does not seem terribly clear.

I am trying to follow it right now to install the rig in my character but I am confused by some things: some bones seem to be

set up so that other bones follow when you move the parent, others are not. For instance, when I move the top leg bone

only the next bone down follows it, not the whole chain. Do I need to go and make sure that the hierarchy is set up correctly

as well or should it already be that way? Is there an easy way to select several bones at once to move them? When I try

moving them manually, I seem to screw up their relationships to each other.

 

I understand that I am going to have to do cp weighting and set bone fall-off, that doesn't seem to be too bad after doing a few

tutorials, is there anything else I need to worry about?

 

Also, the million dollar question is: since I have one character that has a tail would I be better off using the TSM2 rig for both,

or use the TSM2 or the char w/ the tail and the 2008 rig for the penguin, or should I use the 2008 rig for both and just add a tail

rig by myself? (It does not seem that it would be that hard, but I may be underestimating the difficulty)

Would I be creating problems for myself by using 2 different rigs, other than I wouldn't be able to reuse actions between the two characters?

[HomeSlice]

Is there an easy way to select several bones at once to move them?

Select the parent bone and hit the Translate Manipulator button, then use the manipulator to move the the parent and all its children around. Use the Rotate Manipulator to rotate them. Use the Scale Manipulator to scale them.

 

For your particular character, since it is pretty simple, you may be better served by learning how to build your own simple rig. Give it a try. Once you are familiar with the basics of building your own simple rig, installing some of the other rigs will be a little easier to understand.

 

Robcat has a couple of video tuts to get you started:

http://www.hash.com/forums/index.php?s=&am...st&p=206902

http://www.hash.com/forums/index.php?s=&am...st&p=306495

 

And here is one on using the various constraints:

http://www.hash.com/forums/index.php?s=&am...st&p=249019

[Roger]

Is there an easy way to select several bones at once to move them?

Select the parent bone and hit the Translate Manipulator button, then use the manipulator to move the the parent and all its children around. Use the Rotate Manipulator to rotate them. Use the Scale Manipulator to scale them.

 

For your particular character, since it is pretty simple, you may be better served by learning how to build your own simple rig. Give it a try. Once you are familiar with the basics of building your own simple rig, installing some of the other rigs will be a little easier to understand.

 

Robcat has a couple of video tuts to get you started:

http://www.hash.com/forums/index.php?s=&am...st&p=206902

http://www.hash.com/forums/index.php?s=&am...st&p=306495

 

And here is one on using the various constraints:

http://www.hash.com/forums/index.php?s=&am...st&p=249019

 

That is kind of what I was thinking, the penguin should not be terribly tough to rig. I will see where I go with that before trying the other ones.

[pixelplucker]

How are you coming along with your rigging Roger?

Hollar if your getting stuck.

[Roger]

How are you coming along with your rigging Roger?

Hollar if your getting stuck.

 

 

See my thread in rigging and relationships - after looking at the Zundel tutorials it is making a lot more sense. Still a few things confusing me. Sorry I haven't posted for a while, been busy with work and other stuff. I've got a few days off and I've decided that I'm going to have at least one fully rigged character by the end of that time.

[pixelplucker]

I'll check it out, glad to hear your sticking with it.

[Roger]

Thought I'd post a fixed (more or less) penguin. I still have to sort out the bones - but I'm hoping to get that done tonight, or maybe tomorrow.

[Roger]

I am frustrated by rigging, so I thought I'd take a break to work some on modelling. Right now, I'm working on an old-timey looking padlock for a treasure chest. I seem to be having a problem with the 5 point patches causing creasing. Any thoughts why they are causing creasing on one side and not the other?

[Roger]

Well

 

I may have fixed my own problem by doing a copy-flip-attach, if only I can get the 5 pointers to close on the other side.

 

Roger

[robcat2075]

The normal on a five-pointer needs to be facing the same direction as all the surrounding patches or there will be a crease.

[Roger]

The normal on a five-pointer needs to be facing the same direction as all the surrounding patches or there will be a crease.

 

How exactly do you adjust which way the normal is facing?

[NancyGormezano]

select the patch(es) - right click - flip normals

[Roger]

I'm going back to working on rigging for a bit.

 

Anyone have any idea why if you select a spline ring, edit the cp weights, delete the current weighting, and then go to add bones to re-weight, why AM would pop the same bone in there twice by itself?

 

For instance, I deleted the current weighting, then add bone1 and bone2, and they each weight to 50% - but then AM puts another instance of bone1 in with a ? next to weighing, toggles the first instace of bone1 to 100% and leaves bone 2 at 50%.

 

I have no clue why its doing this or how to fix it.

[Roger]

Working on trying to finish the penguin model today - the little things that need to be added in to give life to the character. Right now I'm working on the beak.

 

I have a wireframe and a rendered image, let me know what you think. One problem I am noticing is I am going to have to adjust the front of the beak, it almost looks like it was sliced off with a knife.

 

I may need to add another spline or 2 so that there is more geometry that makes up the beak - it may be easier to hook into the face then. I have no clue how I'm going to do that just yet.

[robcat2075]

One tactic for the tip is to bring all four splines forward in stead of just two and join them in a conventional x crossing. That will put four three pointers on the tip of the beak which is ok. Or bring a whole spline ring forward and scale it very samll so you can't see the opening.

 

 

 

 

 

 

But how about something a bit more beakish like this:

 

 

Beak.mdl

 

 

It's always tempting to try to bend a basic primitive into shape but i think modeling the contours from scratch gives more satisfying results.

[Roger]

Do you recommend then doing it as 2 separate halves, then joining those together somehow?

[Roger]

Did you do a spline that loops back around to make the beak, or did you do that some other way?

[Roger]

Here's an update - I ended up going with something "expedient" for the beak because it was giving me fits.

[robcat2075]

Bird Beak, step by step.

 

http://www.hash.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=38810

[jakerupert]

>It's always tempting to try to bend a basic primitive into shape.

 

[Meowx]

Did you do a spline that loops back around to make the beak, or did you do that some other way?

One thing to keep in mind when modeling is to think about how it works and looks in real life. This even - nay, especially - applies to "cartoony" characters. You still want to have the basic structure of the body correct or it doesn't look quite right.

 

When in doubt, google! Type "penguin" or "bird beak" or whatever you're looking for into a google image search and you'll find LOADS of reference pictures to help you out.

[Roger]

Did you do a spline that loops back around to make the beak, or did you do that some other way?

One thing to keep in mind when modeling is to think about how it works and looks in real life. This even - nay, especially - applies to "cartoony" characters. You still want to have the basic structure of the body correct or it doesn't look quite right.

 

When in doubt, google! Type "penguin" or "bird beak" or whatever you're looking for into a google image search and you'll find LOADS of reference pictures to help you out.

 

I had the right shape for the cross section. I probably should have used a rotoscope as a guide, would have made adjusting the profile easier as opposed to freehanding it.

I couldn't figure out how Rob did the rounded section on the front of his until I actually saw him pull extrude the 3 points that make up the righthand side and then rotate them and extrude and rotate again.

[Roger]

OK - here it is, Beak Mark II:

[robcat2075]

That's a good looking snout!

[Roger]

That's a good looking snout!

 

 

Thanks I need to figure out how I'm going to attach it to the face, and maybe tweak the size of the lower beak in relation to the upper beak a bit, but thats more or less what its going to look lke. Making the lip on the front was much easier after seeing you do it, I most likely would have done the "scale the points way down" method of closing it off but this seems much more elegant.

[Roger]

I'm trying to puzzle out how I'm going to attach this thing to the face - not sure what the best way to go about tying it in is. Anyone out there have thoughts about attaching noses, snouts, beaks, etc to a face when modelled separately?

[Roger]

I think it probably makes most sense to insert some CPs into the face corresponding to the CPS on the back of the beak (the ones on the outside, anyway, don't see a need to do it for internal ones) so that I can have something to attach it to. Not sure yet how I'm going to do it just yet so that I don't mess up what I already have. I have included a screenshot, red dots correspond to the CPs.

[robcat2075]

can you show a shaded wire frame version of that view so the back wires aren't visible?

[Roger]

Here's the shaded version: