Flipping Bones

[PaulX]

Before choosing between jumping off a nearby cliff or dusting off the old light-box having ripped the rig out of this model three times and still having the same problem - I thought I'd put this to the forum.

The character is rigged with the 2001 skeleton. As soon as I move the arms downwards they flip and/or disappear. It's most likely a constraint problem (?) but after much trial and error and comparing arm bone by arm bone to models with the same rig and that work, I admit defeat. Any ideas? Attached is a top view in which can be seen that the right forearm has boldly gone where no forearm has ever been (eh - no rude comments please lads) and the left has flipped back onto its bicep.

Also after rigging the model, I find it's off axis. In the picture it's to its left but on previous re-rigging attempts it was to its right. Never worked out why.

[robcat2075]

You're probably right... something is messed up, but it's hard to diagnose from a pic.

 

If you're on a PC how about rigging with TSM2? It's better than AM2001 , it's easier, and it's free.

 

Look for the download in the Rigging forum.

[itsjustme]

It's hard to tell without seeing the model. You could post it without the geometry so that it can be tracked down.

[mtpeak2]

The model being off center is probably a balance setup issue, the balance control bones are out of position or the foot targets are out of position. Set both balance poses to 0% and see if it's still off center. Is the arm flipping with IK arms ON? If it is, that's a constraint issue. You could also have the arm bones roll handles pointing in the wrong direction. I couldn't tell you the problem with the right forearm without looking at the model.

 

What version of AM are you using?

[PaulX]

The model being off center is probably a balance setup issue, the balance control bones are out of position or the foot targets are out of position. Set both balance poses to 0% and see if it's still off center. Is the arm flipping with IK arms ON? If it is, that's a constraint issue. You could also have the arm bones roll handles pointing in the wrong direction. I couldn't tell you the problem with the right forearm without looking at the model.

 

What version of AM are you using?

 

Thanks all...

 

I'm using V15c.

 

Tried switching off balance poses but did not appear to make a difference.

 

The arms flip with IK on or off but the problem is much worse when set to ON (see attached pic)

 

Roll handles... pretty sure I checked those but will have another look - actually straight up

[itsjustme]

Post the actual model. If you don't want to post the model with geometry, make a copy with that deleted and post it. It will take some actual messing with the rig to find out what's wrong, Paul.

[PaulX]

Post the actual model. If you don't want to post the model with geometry, make a copy with that deleted and post it. It will take some actual messing with the rig to find out what's wrong, Paul.

 

 

 

Sorry but don't know what is meant by 'geometry' as opposed to 'model' but whatever - it's not important. I just thought someone may have encountered the same problem and had a quick fix. I'll rip it out again and see what happens.

[itsjustme]

Post the actual model. If you don't want to post the model with geometry, make a copy with that deleted and post it. It will take some actual messing with the rig to find out what's wrong, Paul.

 

 

 

Sorry but don't know what is meant by 'geometry' as opposed to 'model' but whatever - it's not important. I just thought someone may have encountered the same problem and had a quick fix. I'll rip it out again and see what happens.

 

Is there a reason you can't attach the actual model to a post in this thread, Paul? If we could open the model in A:M, it would be very helpful in finding the problem.

[mtpeak2]

There are some bones out of position, but it shouldn't affect the model like that. I would need to see the model file to see what the problem is.

 

He means to delete the mesh and save it as a model with just the bones in it.

[PaulX]

Post the actual model. If you don't want to post the model with geometry, make a copy with that deleted and post it. It will take some actual messing with the rig to find out what's wrong, Paul.

 

 

 

Sorry but don't know what is meant by 'geometry' as opposed to 'model' but whatever - it's not important. I just thought someone may have encountered the same problem and had a quick fix. I'll rip it out again and see what happens.

 

Is there a reason you can't attach the actual model to a post in this thread, Paul? If we could open the model in A:M, it would be very helpful in finding the problem.

 

 

No reason other than I'm not happy with it either. I re-rigged the model and near the same problem, it does look like an IK arm set up problem as this time the lower right arm flips to random positions when I turn IK on and off without touching anything else. It's near three in the morning so no further attempts tonight but am now thinking of creating a rig from scratch, this one has worked fine but I have found that while the set ups make it easier to pose a model, the complexity of it all gets in the way when animating. For example I animated a character marching and wanted to 'break' the knee joint when the forward leg snaps out straight but the rig wouldn't allow that to happen and being in no way an expert I preferred not to play around with all the balance this and IK that controls. All I want to do is put the bits where I want them on each key frame, have the ability to stretch or squash the model, lip synch and facial expressions and that's it.

[mtpeak2]

It may be just a corrupted relationship folder. If you keep using the same copy of the rig for installation, you are going to have the same problems. Where did the rig come from that you are installing? Was it downloaded? Was it from the AM cd? Was it pulled out of another model?

 

I CAN fix it, but I have to see the model file. So, if you are not willing to post the file, I can't help you, and neither can the rest.

[PaulX]

It may be just a corrupted relationship folder. If you keep using the same copy of the rig for installation, you are going to have the same problems. Where did the rig come from that you are installing? Was it downloaded? Was it from the AM cd? Was it pulled out of another model?

 

I CAN fix it, but I have to see the model file. So, if you are not willing to post the file, I can't help you, and neither can the rest.

 

I really appreciate the offer mtpeak2 but don't want to waste your time so I'll change the relationship folder and see what happens. Hopefully it will work this time and I can get on with finishing this short...

[PaulX]

Found that if I open the 2001 skeleton, create an action and switch on IK arm set up, the right arm jumps, so it is in the rig/relationship folder that the problem resides. Downloading it again.

 

But, and this is where things get even more interesting, I opened all projects and models on my HD and found that other things are messed up, for example a model from one project has the rendered image of part of another decaled onto it. The two have never ever been opened at the same time. Obviously something is messing around with files and folders and I remember receiving a report about a new worm (?) virus targeting games and that last week during a thorough virus scan the software did find a worm. Unfortunately I didn't note its identity so unsure whether it's the same as the one reported but according to the report there are already 500 different versions of this virus circulating in cyberspace.

Maybe the software peoples could say whether a virus designed to target 3D games could damage software such as A:M?

[MJL]

PaulX,

I don't know if it's related or not, but the initial problem with the 2001 rig sounds like a problem that I had with it last month. Check out this thread and see if it helps any. http://www.hash.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=32379

[PaulX]

PaulX,

I don't know if it's related or not, but the initial problem with the 2001 rig sounds like a problem that I had with it last month. Check out this thread and see if it helps any. http://www.hash.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=32379

 

Spot on the same, I opened a brand spanking new 2001 skeleton downloaded this afternoon, opened it, new action and turned on IK arms and bang, the right arm did exactly the same as yours and I mean exactly. So that would mean the problem is embedded in the rig. OK and thanks MJL, looks like we are finally getting to the real source of the problem.