Scene length doesn't stick

[Tore]

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Edited April 19, 2018 by Tore

[Rodney]

I'd report what you are experiencing. Reporting now should make sure the problem doesn't appear in v19 when it is released.

 

There does appear to be a refresh issue with displayed Chor length specifically in Spline mode.

I'm not seeing the same thing in the keyframe/dopesheet mode.

[robcat2075]

Models don't have length setting but their Actions do.

[Tore]

 

Edited April 19, 2018 by Tore

[robcat2075]

Chor Length is typically set to be as long as the last key frame in any object in the chor.

 

Can you present a test case that shows Chor length being lost?

 

 

 

 

Models don't have length setting but their Actions do.

 

 

 

Shouldn't shortening the general length of the choreography from say 100 to 50 frames automatically shorten all that choreography's object's actions to maximum 50 frames?

 

 

 

 

No, I don't believe it should.

Object Actions have a time span that is independent of the chor length. There would be serious bad side effects if changing the Chor length (which is mostly a nominal value, it doesn't prevent you from rendering any more or less of a chor than the stated length) automatically scaled or chopped Object Action.

[Tore]

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Edited April 19, 2018 by Tore

[Tore]

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Edited April 19, 2018 by Tore

[Rodney]

Shouldn't shortening the general length of the choreography from say 100 to 50 frames automatically shorten all that choreography's object's actions to maximum 50 frames?

 

No, in many cases we want those actions to continue past the 'active' chor... as in your last example which should work.

The Chor length is just showing that portion of the Chor that is active.

We could then make copies of that Chor that had different 'active' frames from the full length of all keyframes.

I note that in your last post you seem to be requesting the opposite of your earlier post. This underlines that it need to be the users decision on what the lengths of any animated objects are.

 

We might be running into an odd bug here that sometimes works/sometimes doesn't.

I did a quick test (moving a camera) and that movement does extend out past the Chor.

To make sure it works for you too save your Project under a new filename. I'm not sure why but in once instance the movement outside of active Chor region didn't get stored.

Bottom line: extending actions beyond the active chor should work.

 

Added: As a workaround in A:M (if you can't get an action to project outside the active Chor region) consider using the Post Extrapolation setting. The options there are Reset, Hold, Repeat, Ping Pong, Accumulate and Linear. Linear would get you the equivalent of what you have as a screenshot BUT extending the spline beyond the active chor region should also work. I do note that the active chor region and the inactive region are almost the same color which makes it really hard to tell where the active area is at times. I often have to look at the channel region in order to see the end of the active chor as it's colors are more easily discerned. For ease of reading within the channel post extrapolations will appear as dotted lines so that we can easily see what has been automated.

[robcat2075]

Tore, in that other software it looks like you are referring to what in A:M is the "Play Range" rather than A:M's Chor "length."

 

I'm not clear on what it is you want to set the "Chor" length for? Tell me what you need that for and i can know what you want better.

[Tore]

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Edited April 19, 2018 by Tore

[Rodney]

What I simply want to do is taking ANY scene and reuse it, making changes etc, and be able to set a new scene length.

 

This we should be able to do.

 

As the play range takes its setting from the chor length,...

 

Only initially. We can change the play range to anything we want.

That is then our active 'scene'.

 

It'd be nice to see some more examples of various approaches here because lots of folks (including me) will learn a ton.

I've downloaded your previous project file and will investigate that (given your description and instructions).

[Rodney]

Edit: I think I can reproduce the 'bug'.

Still investigating but it appears to be mostly a refresh bug. As I click through various objects the playrange appears to correct itself.

This might suggest a setting that is persisting in memory/cache as that old setting is nowhere else within the Project to be found.

 

Tore,

It may be helpful to start from a default (empty) project.

The example you use should operate the same and will remove all other variables from the problem.

Then if anything is altered from that default we can isolate that element from the problem.

 

At present I'm not seeing consistent results. Here's basically what I'm seeing:

 

If I reload a project (with A:M still open) the settings don't appear to update to last saved changes.

If I shut down A:M, launch A:M and load the project the updated changes appear.

 

That may not always be the case but that is what I'm seeing thus far.

 

An alternate way to test might be to have two instances of A:M open simultaneously and then use both of those to open the Project.

[Tore]

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Edited April 19, 2018 by Tore

[Rodney]

You CAN find the old 614 frames setting in the file, namely in the action setting for the light. If you change the 614 end frame to say 0, it is now possible to set the chor range as it was the setting in the light that prevented it from being shortened.

 

Duly noted.

 

Not that this is the solution but... have you tried a Right Click on Chor in PWS and selecting Shrink Length?

I haven't used that feature much so don't know the extent of what is being shrunk.

It -appears- to shrink the Chor to the length of the longest Action. (Which appears to be your stated problem)

Perhaps that feature could be expanded to grant some additional options.

[Tore]

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Edited April 19, 2018 by Tore

[Rodney]

Please don't try that out on your original project files.... I cannot be responsible for errors that may cause!

 

Sleep well Tore!

[robcat2075]

Tore... tell me what I'm getting wrong here:

 

 

clip3869ToresChorLengthQuestion.mov

 

 

[Tore]

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Edited April 19, 2018 by Tore

[robcat2075]

I tried your test PRJ and it does fail to retain the 50 frame setting after a save and reload.

 

What you really want is for the Blue bar (the Chor Length) to stay set at 50 frames after a save and reload, without having to make other workarounds in the chor, right?

[Tore]

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Edited April 19, 2018 by Tore

[robcat2075]

When you say "Scene length" what do you mean that is different form the Chor "length"?

 

I'll note that in the file, Play Range and Chor length ("Frames") are written as separate values, so they are potentially independent of each other, but there is no "Scene length " parameter.

 

Name=Choreography1
PlayRange=0 4:5
Selected=TRUE
Frames=4:5

 

[Tore]

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Edited April 19, 2018 by Tore

[Rodney]

That's what is commonly referred to as the play range.

The play range does define your (real time rendered) scene.

 

Where things can get confusing is that (rightfully so) the Chor length and the Play range are not always the same.

As an example, we may have three copies of the same Chor all with different play ranges (representing different renderable shots within that same sequence).

[robcat2075]

Tore, I've read the thread and I'm still not clear on what you are doing that needs the Chor length to be a certain length.

 

 

 

Play range affects only the span of the timeline that gets played in real time when you hit the Play button. It has no effect on Render Range.

 

Chor length also has no effect on Render Range. Newton and SimCloth use Chor length to know when to stop a simulation but other than that Chor Length doesn't mean much.

 

Render Range is something you explicitly set in the render panel.

 

Tore... is Render Range what you are really trying to save with your PRJs?

[Tore]

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Edited April 19, 2018 by Tore

[NancyGormezano]

The reason your choreography length was being set to 614 was that the chor range for the chor action for the testspot light was from 0, 614. I set it to go from 0, 28.

 

I also then changed the chor LENGTH to 29 and the play range to go from 0 to 60 and then I saved the project.

 

I closed A:M ver 18n/64, restarted and reopened the project. The chor length stayed at 29, the ranges for the chor action for testspot stayed at 0, 28. And my play range stayed at 0 to 60. Yours may be different because I don't know what you have your play range set to (don't think that is stored with project?)

 

The render range is still set in the camera to go from 0 to 87 which is what you originally had.

 

hope that helps.

test_lengthshortening2.prj

[Rodney]

Sorry this has been so frustrating.

 

The problem I'm having on my end (and why I'm seeking common definitions so I know we are talking about the same thing... and I'm sure Robert is doing the same) is that at present I'm seeing every setting recall from a saved file on my end. Another reason is that we want to be able to articulate a proper report should we encounter a bug that can be replicated.

In short we want to fix the problem but we aren't exactly sure what THE problem (and/or your problem) is.

 

There are two exceptions to the rule of being able to recall saved settings I am investigating at present. One appears to be a refresh issue and the other has to do with saving the file under the same name (I recommend saving incrementally... adding a number or letter to the filename.).

 

If you are not saving the Project with a new name you might try that as that is returning saved settings for me no matter where I can a setting.

This doesn't always appear to be the case when using 'Save' but I can't reproduce the results on my end which is why I've been trying to dig deeper into the mystery of what is going on here. This IS NOT the default way Projects/Chors save their Chor Lengths. I'm just showing that ocassionally it can be done. Why we would want to do this is an entirely different question that has more to do with desired workflow from individual artists

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So, that would be my suggestion if you aren't doing it already; save under a new Project filename.

 

it has been established that Animation Master do not allways save the set frame range/scene length/chor length with the project file.

 

I only wish that were the case.

 

Hang in there Tore.

 

Nancy said:

the chor range for the chor action for the testspot light was from 0, 614. I set it to go from 0, 28.

 

As near as I can tell, Tore's desire is to be able to have the Chor length stick to less than the length of the Chor Actions without changing the lengths of all the Chor Actions for every object.

I'm able to do this but (I think) only when saving under a new Project file name... which doesn't make sense to me... so I'm investigating.

Currently I'm able to get the settings to stick everywhere even in a standard save under the same name.

 

Added graphic of the various setttings that save and are properly recalled (this also demonstrates that a Chor Length can be saved/recalled as shorter than the various Chor Actions):

[NancyGormezano]

 

 

 

Nancy said:

the chor range for the chor action for the testspot light was from 0, 614. I set it to go from 0, 28.

 

As near as I can tell, Tore's desire is to be able to have the Chor length stick to less than the length of the Chor Actions without changing the lengths of all the Chor Actions for every object.

I'm able to do this but (I think) only when saving under a new Project file name... which doesn't make sense to me... so I'm investigating.

NO

 

that is not possible. The length of the chor is minimally set to the longest chor action. So NO, A:M can not do that and was not designed to do that, nor should it do that. It is not a bug.

 

The range for his chor action for the spotlight was wrong. There were no keyframes set for the spotlight other than at frame 0.

[robcat2075]

Well, this is beginning to be ridicously confusing for me.

 

I just want to be able to save ANY range what ever you call it, and any combination of ranges and frames and lengths and any single range, as it is set by me, without the software changing my settings every time I save a project file. Why is the exact frasing of the name of these ranges, and what I am going to use them for so important??

 

Because it's important to fix the thing that is the actual problem and not spend time on something else that is being referred to by the wrong name.

 

 

 

 

 

There has to be a yes or no answer to this question at least:

 

Tore... is Render Range what you are really trying to save with your PRJs?

 

 

 

Also, in the following software, when you set "Out=60" doesn't that just mean that when you hit Play the program will play the animation onscreen from frame 0 to 60? Or does it mean something different?

 

[robcat2075]

Hey, Tore... Here's a better idea... On Saturday I do "Live Answer Time". People call me on Skype and I look at their problem and try to solve it.

 

Get yourself Skype and you can show me exactly what it is that your other software is doing and what you want A:M to do and I think we can identify the problem very quickly and decide if it's a bug that needs to be reported or if it's just something that needs to be done differently.