2008 rig question

[Simon Edmondson]

Animating with the 2008 rig in a chor with V17, keys keep appearing when the option was not selected ?

If I rotate the head geometry bone it sets a key for the scale target, likewise with the pelvis geometry.

The scale skeletal button is not selected in the bottom left corner, and it happens intermittently, sometimes it does, others not.

Have tried deleting it in the PWS but it keeps coming back.

Is there an option to avoid the problem ?

regards

simon

 

Imac, OSX 10.68, V17g

[markw]

Hi Simon,

I'm not too sure what you are describing there?

I'm only seeing key frames being made as and where expected when using the 2008 rig here.

Can you post any screenshots or maybe even a screen recording of what you are seeing?

[robcat2075]

If I rotate the head geometry bone it

 

I'm not up on the 2008 rig but I thought that, in general, you don't animate "geometry" bones, there is some other control made for them.

[Simon Edmondson]

If I rotate the head geometry bone it

 

I'm not up on the 2008 rig but I thought that, in general, you don't animate "geometry" bones, there is some other control made for them.

 

Robert

Thank you for your reply, it may explain my mistakes !

I hadn't seen any instructions on the 2008 rig, aside from the installation pdf. Had noticed the use of nulls for curling the finger joints and the hand controls but had avoided using those for the moment. Are there any instructions specifically to do with the rig and how to animate with it ?

 

regards

simon

[markw]

In the 2008rig, with IK Legs and Arms "OFF" there are quite a few bones you can directly animate with all of which have the word "Geom" at the end of their names;

Shoulder

Bicep

Forearm

Hand

Thigh

Calf

Foot

Toe

Turning on "Show Right/Left FK Finger_Thumb" will reveal all the finger and thumb bones of a hand, if you should ever need to move any of them individually. Their names also end with the word "Geom"

I would note that both the bones used for animating the Head and Pelvis have the word "Controller" at the end of their names. However there are corresponding bones ending with the word "Geom" but they should have been hidden automatically during the rigging process. I don't think you should be animating with these two "Geom" bones. All I can say is I've never used them and in fact you have to turn off the Head and Pelvis Controllers in order to see these "Geom" bones again.

[robcat2075]

I think Mark Skodacek (mtpeak2) is the 2008 rig guru. Perhaps he will chime in.

 

I believe there's a thread about the rig with instructions on installing that might clarify what is supposed to be visible and usable.

 

But I really don't know much about the 2008 rig.

[Simon Edmondson]

In the 2008rig, with IK Legs and Arms "OFF" there are quite a few bones you can directly animate with all of which have the word "Geom" at the end of their names;

Shoulder

Bicep

Forearm

Hand

Thigh

Calf

Foot

Toe

Turning on "Show Right/Left FK Finger_Thumb" will reveal all the finger and thumb bones of a hand, if you should ever need to move any of them individually. Their names also end with the word "Geom"

I would note that both the bones used for animating the Head and Pelvis have the word "Controller" at the end of their names. However there are corresponding bones ending with the word "Geom" but they should have been hidden automatically during the rigging process. I don't think you should be animating with these two "Geom" bones. All I can say is I've never used them and in fact you have to turn off the Head and Pelvis Controllers in order to see these "Geom" bones again.

 

Mark

Thank you for your reply and info. Very much appreciated.

Because I was using the geom bones to animate with elsewhere I had used them in the pelvis and head areas too, My mistake. I had turned off the chest controller because it seemed to be the only way to get the two back bones visible to animate with.

Back to the proper way with the next section...

regards

simon

[NancyGormezano]

Because I was using the geom bones to animate with elsewhere I had used them in the pelvis and head areas too, My mistake. I had turned off the chest controller because it seemed to be the only way to get the two back bones visible to animate with.

Back to the proper way with the next section...

 

It is not a mistake to turn off the chest controller, nor head controller. The 2008 rig is built to allow that. Just for the reason you stated & sometimes it is easier to get the pose you want by using the geom bones (head, neck, back bones) rather than using the head or chest controllers. The other extra bones that show up and get keyed when you switch between the modes (turning the poses for the controllers on/off) are supposed to show up, as this is what allows you to switch between the modes seamlessly.

 

Ignore the bones that aren't relevant when animating (based on the mode you are in).

[mtpeak2]

Nancy is correct.

 

All Geom bones are used for animating in FK mode. The reason for this is to minimize the amount of control bone in the rig. As Nancy stated, the extra bones that get keyed are needed for the constraint setup, to allow for seamless switching.

 

The only bone you need to be concerned with are the ones that are visible in the viewport window. Turning switches (poses) ON/OFF will make bones appear and disappear, depending on which mode you are in (FK/IK).

[markw]

Thank you Mark & Nancy for the clarification, I see we have more animating options with this rig than I for one was previously aware of!

[Simon Edmondson]

Nancy is correct.

 

All Geom bones are used for animating in FK mode. The reason for this is to minimize the amount of control bone in the rig. As Nancy stated, the extra bones that get keyed are needed for the constraint setup, to allow for seamless switching.

 

The only bone you need to be concerned with are the ones that are visible in the viewport window. Turning switches (poses) ON/OFF will make bones appear and disappear, depending on which mode you are in (FK/IK).

 

Mark and Nancy

Thank you for the clarifications.

Time to explore.

regards

simon

[Simon Edmondson]

Working away with the rig today and encountered a problem ( entirely of my own making ) and wondered if anyone else has had it and, most importantly, how to get out of it ?

 

Animating in the chor, V17 .

Selecting the foot controller in the PWS I inadvertently dragged it so it has become a child of another bone. This has completely messed up the animation put together over the past six hours. I would be very keemn to reclaim it. Does anyone know a way to do that ?

regards

simon

[robcat2075]

Presuming you don't have any more recent version of your animation saved...

 

Do you have a previous version of this model saved? A version that is that same as what you started this animation with?

 

(I don't want to hear "no" as the answer. )

 

If you do, make a copy of it. Rename the copy in some way. Load it into your objects folder.

 

then, in the chor, in the properties for the model, change the "shortcut to" to the name of your renamed imported model.

 

Now you have a proper, undamaged version of your model in the chor.

 

Scrub through it and delete or redo any keys you made after you changed the hierarchy in the first model.

[markw]

Time Machine

You do use it, right?

If the model was in it's correct functioning state on your HD for more than a couple of hours then you will have a clean copy of it backed up. If its an old model then you definitely will have copies of it saved.

Go back to the closest Time Machine backup of the model before things got messed up and hit Restore.

 

If you don't use Time Machine, start! It's saved my arse on more than one occasion!

[Simon Edmondson]

Robert

Thank you for your reply and your help. Much appreciated.

I learnt a while ago to save iterated versions of models and chors I hadn't saved this chor as an iteration yet, which is why it was so alarming.

The model itself was undamaged it was the chor that seemed to have the mangled setting.

I've followed your advice and gone back and redid the keys for the foot controller.

Thank you.

regards

simon

[Simon Edmondson]

By way of illustration.

Here is the modified version

 

Balance2.mov

 

and here is the mangled version

amusing in result but not what was intended.

 

Mangled.mov

 

Still work being done on the figures and timing.

regards

simon

[Simon Edmondson]

Time Machine

You do use it, right?

If the model was in it's correct functioning state on your HD for more than a couple of hours then you will have a clean copy of it backed up. If its an old model then you definitely will have copies of it saved.

Go back to the closest Time Machine backup of the model before things got messed up and hit Restore.

 

If you don't use Time Machine, start! It's saved my arse on more than one occasion!

 

Mark

Thank you for your reply.

I have a backup HD installed for Time Machine and it churns away steadily. It wasn't the model itself that got damaged but the way the keys were used in the chor ? The keyline for the left foot contoller became part of the keyline for the left Bicep .

as in this screengrab.

 

 

Its happened before but I managed to catch it before saving and just reverted. This time I didn't catch it.

regards

simon

[NancyGormezano]

It wasn't the model itself that got damaged but the way the keys were used in the chor ? The keyline for the left foot contoller became part of the keyline for the left Bicep .

as in this screengrab.

 

Its happened before but I managed to catch it before saving and just reverted. This time I didn't catch it.

 

Ack. UGGY.

 

This is my least favorite bug in A:M. One can inadvertently/accidently drag bones in the timeline to become a child of another bone, yet one can't drag it back to it's rightful place...and yes, then all is lost if you don't notice it right away.

 

I have found that, for me, this is more likely NOT to occur if I have UNCHECKED the "show properties triangle" in tools/options/Global and then I have the properties panel up instead. (View/Properties or alt+3). Try this way, and see if it occurs less frequently.

 

I also have other suspicions: either because of my graphics card driver? or I've done something too fast while in the chor, ie I didn't give A:M enough time to think about it, or my chor has become too complicated? I really can't pinpoint what causes this...but yes it is a bummer.

[Simon Edmondson]

Ack. UGGY.

 

This is my least favorite bug in A:M. One can inadvertently/accidently drag bones in the timeline to become a child of another bone, yet one can't drag it back to it's rightful place...and yes, then all is lost if you don't notice it right away.

 

I have found that, for me, this is more likely NOT to occur if I have UNCHECKED the "show properties triangle" in tools/options/Global and then I have the properties panel up instead. (View/Properties or alt+3). Try this way, and see if it occurs less frequently.

 

I also have other suspicions: either because of my graphics card driver? or I've done something too fast while in the chor, ie I didn't give A:M enough time to think about it, or my chor has become too complicated? I really can't pinpoint what causes this...but yes it is a bummer.

 

Nancy

 

Thank you for your reply and help. I thought it might be me being clumsy. I shall try your tip regarding the properties triangle. I followed Mark's suggestion regarding Time machine but I may have the backup option set too frequently as it had saved the mangled file before I got there. Lots of learning going on in many areas here !

regards

simon

[markw]

Ah I see. You know, I didn't even know it was possible to do that in a Chor!

If nothing else, your misadventure can stand as a warning to the rest of us that it can happen!

Glad to hear you use Time Machine too. I'm constantly surprised by the number of computer users I meet that don't have some form of backup strategy in place.

[robcat2075]

Oh... THAT bug.

 

I haven't done that in ages and i thought it was fixed but i just tried it in v17 and v18 and it's still there. Properties triangle ON or OFF doesn't seem to make a difference.

 

So I've reported it again for v18.

 

 

Simon... it is possible to fix a damaged chor with a text editor. If you compare an undamaged chor with the damaged one you can see where to move the bone and all its related info with it.l

 

If you want to send both to me I can try to do it.

[NancyGormezano]

Properties triangle ON or OFF doesn't seem to make a difference.

 

Yes, having the property triangle OFF does not prevent a bone from being dragged in the chor.

 

HOWEVER:

 

I find that when I have the property triangle showing (ON), then the act of clicking on it in the timeline to expand the property can sometimes cause the bone to be dragged/relocated inadvertently. So I am less likely to have this occur, if I inspect and alter the properties in the separate panel, and not in the timeline with Property triangle OFF.

[robcat2075]

Ah, I see what you are saying.

 

It ought to be possible to make those things not draggable. Hopefully Steffen can fix that.

[Rodney]

Aside: From your screen shot it appears you are animating the characters jumping on the seesaw.

That was one of the more interesting video references I saw when I was previously responding to you.

 

Good on ya!

[Simon Edmondson]

O...

Simon... it is possible to fix a damaged chor with a text editor. If you compare an undamaged chor with the damaged one you can see where to move the bone and all its related info with it.l

 

If you want to send both to me I can try to do it.

 

Robert

Thank you for your reply and kind offer to help fix it.

I went back and re did the keys as you had suggested and that seems to have worked. I will have a look in a text editor later to see if I can spot it as it would be good to know how to fix it when I do it again. This time it was relatively easy because there were only 4 seconds of simple animation.

regards

simon

[Simon Edmondson]

O...

Simon... it is possible to fix a damaged chor with a text editor. If you compare an undamaged chor with the damaged one you can see where to move the bone and all its related info with it.l

 

If you want to send both to me I can try to do it.

 

Robert

I was just responding to your most recent video critique when the same error as above here occurred.

I've just had a look at the chor in a text editor but, being a complete beginner at this, it is almost unintelligible. The phrase "too much information" does not cover it !

Rather than take up your time unnecessarily, could you give me a quick guide as to what I should be looking for ? Thank you.

 

I had saved the chor's progressively but, had just saved it when I noticed the error and don't know how far back it happened.

regards

simon