kattkieru Posted July 16, 2006 Share Posted July 16, 2006 Heya all, Long story short: my powerbook (G4 1.33GHz, 1.25 gig of ram, GeForce 5200 64 meg of video ram) died last month and I cobbled together a PC out of parts while waiting for Apple to figure out how to fix it. The PC: - GeForce 2 GTS (32 meg of video ram, AGP 1 or 2, I'm not sure) - 512 Meg of ram - 1.1 GHz athalon A friend of mine urged me to dust off my 2005 disc and try AM again on the PC, just to see, and wow! Despite being a shadow of my Mac laptop, AM *screamed* on this PC. (The funny part is that it sat caseless on my desk for a while as well, cables snaking out from the motherboard.) It's two months later and after two small modeling projects chosen by said friend to get me back into the swing of things, a bar of soap (yeah, total newbie thing) and a raygun from Space 1999, I attempted a VW beetle. I finished what I guess is a good first pass just now and thought I'd post it; check out the attachment. The total number of patches is 3698 (yes, you read that right). If I decide to actually polish this model and bring it to a more finished state I'll clean that up; most of it is due to me leaving in construction splines and geometry and stuff that can be cleaned out once I'm finished building. Lots of hooks are possible. Also, I think over a quarter of that geometry is in the wheels and VW symbols on the front and back; it was an experiment to see if I could model a logo in AM, and it seems I managed it. From a distance they'd be just fine as decals, though, on dome-ish shapes. So it's important to note that this is modeling practice, that I know there's a lot wrong with it, and that I don't much care because it was for practice. But I did have some questions, if folk are up for them. 1) Stupid newbie thing (not that I'm a newbie but I've forgotten most of what I learned before I quit): how do you easily duplicate materials? Objects too for that matter -- I'd like to be able to, in the project workspace, duplicate something and I can't for the life of me figure out how. 2) Is there some way to get AM to recognize that I'm using a wacom tablet and stylus in pen mode? It has to do with the arthritis in my right wrist. I can't use a mouse right now. Anyway, using a stylus makes certain activities harder (zooming in perspective mode, changing values in the properties window by dragging, etc). If not, I'll live with it. 3) This one's gonna get me caned, but I have to ask anyway: is there a way to constrain the motion of CP handle ends to one of the main axes, as we do with constraining CPs using 1/2/3/4/5/6? Yes, I know that mathematically they have no position in 3D space. However, user interaction with them *appears* to be in 3D space, and there are often times I want to move a CP handle, for example, down only on the X axis and find I have to zoom in and do so, etc, when if I could have held the 1 key down, I could work from any angle and any distance. 4) Speaking of bias handles, is there a way to smooth them? I know of Stephan's (sp?) absolutely brilliant plugins page (why hasn't that man been hired by Hash already? ), but his smoother doesn't do what I want. It has this habit of moving CPs, and you can only stop movement on two of three axes. I'd like to keep CPs in the same place, but smooth the handle values so that patches blend together better at edges. 5) I know about porcelain, and I'll be using it when I get around to really attempting to surface this model (PC AM's material editor works brilliantly, and 12.0w's stability, even while doing progressive renders, is *awesome*) because, quite simply, I don't understand why models would be done any other way. So here's a question: obviously porcelain was wanted by some users because if it wasn't, it wouldn't have been created. Also obviously, there's a reason why materials don't calculate as porcelain by default. So can someone explain to me the benefit of *not* using porcelain? I honestly can't understand why not averaging the normals is a Good Thing, and since someone somewhere along the line made the decision to *not* do so by default I'm sure there was a good reason. 6) Should I bother with the bottom of this car, or should I just make it black? I'm not doing a car interior, btw. I will be adding an aerial, some wipers, and more detailing. After that I have other plans. *cackles* Although since this is practice I don't know whether or not it'll get finished. Anyway, thanks for looking and for reading this far. ~ Charles Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hash Fellow robcat2075 Posted July 16, 2006 Hash Fellow Share Posted July 16, 2006 Welcome back to A:M 1) Stupid newbie thing (not that I'm a newbie but I've forgotten most of what I learned before I quit): how do you easily duplicate materials? Objects too for that matter -- I'd like to be able to, in the project workspace, duplicate something and I can't for the life of me figure out how. if nothing else you can save a material out, change the file name and reload it 3) This one's gonna get me caned, but I have to ask anyway: is there a way to constrain the motion of CP handle ends to one of the main axes, as we do with constraining CPs using 1/2/3/4/5/6? Yes, I know that mathematically they have no position in 3D space. However, user interaction with them *appears* to be in 3D space, and there are often times I want to move a CP handle, for example, down only on the X axis and find I have to zoom in and do so, etc, when if I could have held the 1 key down, I could work from any angle and any distance. this may or may not be what you are talking about. From Rodney's helpful links page: --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Bias Manipulation submitted by Holmes Bryant and Rodger Reynolds ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Adjust Alpha - Ctrl+Alt – Drag Adjust Gamma - Ctrl+Alt+Shft – Drag Adjust Magnitude of only the selected handle AND adjust BOTH Alpha and Gamma of BOTH sides of the spline. - Shift+Drag Adjust Both InMagnitude AND OutMagnitude without changing Alpha or Gamma. Makes the Magnitude opposite the handle you are dragging the same as that of the handle you are dragging so the BOTH Magnitudes are equal. - Alt+Drag Adjust In and Out Magnitudes while maintaining their percentage ratio in relation to one another. - Ctrl+Drag – Note: Similar to alt+drag but does NOT force them to be equal values Adjust ONLY the Magnitude of the handle you are dragging.( Either the InMagnitude OR the OutMagnitude but NOT both.) Does NOT alter Alpha or Gamma. - Ctrl+Shift+Drag Adjust ONLY the Gamma and nothing else. - Alt+Shift+Drag or Alt+Ctrl+Shift+Drag 4) Speaking of bias handles, is there a way to smooth them? I know of Stephan's (sp?) absolutely brilliant plugins page (why hasn't that man been hired by Hash already? ), but his smoother doesn't do what I want. It has this habit of moving CPs, and you can only stop movement on two of three axes. I'd like to keep CPs in the same place, but smooth the handle values so that patches blend together better at edges. I think there is a plugin out there that does that within limits but ultimately i think you have to finish it off by sight. a good reason to make your meshed as light as possible. 5) I know about porcelain, ... So can someone explain to me the benefit of *not* using porcelain? I imagine many mechanical models would not benefit from porcelain. porcelain softens details and you might not want your details to disappear. 6) Should I bother with the bottom of this car, or should I just make it black? I guess it depends on whether you want to practice modeling the bottom of a car. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
luckbat Posted July 16, 2006 Share Posted July 16, 2006 Speaking of bias handles, is there a way to smooth them? [...] I'd like to keep CPs in the same place, but smooth the handle values so that patches blend together better at edges. I think there is a plugin out there that does that within limits but ultimately i think you have to finish it off by sight. a good reason to make your mesh as light as possible. Sounds like Zettle to me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kattkieru Posted July 16, 2006 Author Share Posted July 16, 2006 if nothing else you can save a material out, change the file name and reload it Yeap, that's what I've been doing. I was hoping there was a less roundabout way, but okay. I'll deal. this may or may not be what you are talking about. From Rodney's helpful links page: ... That wasn't what I was looking for at all; I think it's better! Thanks! Modifying alpha and gamma separately from each other and from magnitude actually is the best solution; that makes it so that you're actually moving the tangent handles along a coordinate system specific to the CP. Perfect. I think there is a plugin out there that does that within limits but ultimately i think you have to finish it off by sight. a good reason to make your meshed as light as possible. Yeah, I am working on that. Like I said, the above model is a veritable patch tank. At the same time, there are spots where you just can't slim something down. Those cp-heavy areas are the ones on which a smoother would be most useful. I imagine many mechanical models would not benefit from porcelain. porcelain softens details and you might not want your details to disappear. That's interesting... if you don't mind, do you have links to any examples on which you believe porcelain would, to the model's detriment, smooth over such details? I'm really keen to learn how to see when and where to use both techniques. I guess it depends on whether you want to practice modeling the bottom of a car. Point. Then the lazy way it is. ; Sounds like Zettle to me. Nifty! That's definitely a step in the right direction. Once I understood from his page how he was calculating things I found that there are plenty of spots on which Zettle will be useful. However, it fails in certain places due to the usage of the reference tangent lines (which is a good trick, but only visually accurate 75% of the time). I guess manually modifying them is the only way. Knowing how those CP handles are calculated, though, is probably the best weapon I could have, so thanks! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hash Fellow robcat2075 Posted July 17, 2006 Hash Fellow Share Posted July 17, 2006 That's interesting... if you don't mind, do you have links to any examples on which you believe porcelain would, to the model's detriment, smooth over such details? I'm really keen to learn how to see when and where to use both techniques. Maybe "mechanical" was the wrong term, but just brain storming here... both of these objects have the same splinage, but they don't render to look the same shape. The one on the left looks more like the cross section I modeled, bachelor #2 on the right (with porcelain) is looking fat and puffy. [attachmentid=18372] these are both simple, fully enclosed cubes, but porcelain on the right one makes it shade very oddly. [attachmentid=18373] BTW this was in V11. Porcelain is slightly different in V13, but i haven't examined it. here's the prj so you can try it if you dare. [attachmentid=18374] porcelainTest.zip Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
case Posted July 17, 2006 Share Posted July 17, 2006 awesome and bye the way herbie is whiye with indy 900 red and blue stripes so i dont get it lol Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kattkieru Posted July 18, 2006 Author Share Posted July 18, 2006 New WIP image in the attachments for this post. Visually there aren't too many differences, but I spent all day yesterday slimming down the model; we're down to 1538 patches, which I think is not too bad. The wheels took the heaviest hit, and the logos have been completely done away with for the moment. (I'll add them back just as soon as I can find my AM manual for the bit on Decals.) Tried something with the bottom, failed; gonna try again later. At the same time, there are spots where you just can't slim something down. Those cp-heavy areas are the ones on which a smoother would be most useful. I lied! First, I want to say thanks again for that help on editing CP handles. I've got a system going now thanks to that and the Zettle page, and I've discovered that the most useful thing in the world for me might be a one-key command to "normalize" CP handles. By normalize, I mean set alpha and gamma to 0, and both magnitudes to 100. I found that, on the whole, every spot that was unbecoming was due to alpha or gamma being screwy. 90% of those were fixed in my eyes by normalizing the CP handles in both directions at the junctures (you know what I mean, how each CP is actually two going in the different spline directions) and then doing basic tweaks. both of these objects have the same splinage, but they don't render to look the same shape. The one on the left looks more like the cross section I modeled, bachelor #2 on the right (with porcelain) is looking fat and puffy. Ahh, thanks for that. I see what you mean. Now, in one of the technotes it said there's a weight setting to adjust that behavior? And is there a reason the porcelain setting is hidden? I've found that you can add vertex averaging by editing the material files on disk directly, but not in the properties editor? awesome and bye the way herbie is whiye with indy 900 red and blue stripes so i dont get it lol Yeah, well I don't get Lindsay Lohan being in a Herbie movie either, but then again I'm old-fashioned. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kattkieru Posted July 21, 2006 Author Share Posted July 21, 2006 Finished off the bottom. I'm trying to keep it simple, although depending on how crazy I decide to go with textures I might decal it with drive train parts or something. [attachmentid=18566] Still only up to 1816 patches. I think I'll aim for between 2500 and 3000 total in the end, which leaves me lots of breathing room. (I don't believe it'll actually weigh in that high in the end.) I've been bouncing around on stuff because I never stay in once place for long, but I think next up might be the exhaust and spoiler. I didn't think they actually put spoilers on these things, but I'll be damned if I didn't see one while I was walking around town earlier in the week. Wish I'd had my camera. I could use advice on the axle: what do you reckon it needs? I am trying to keep it simple (streamlined, if you will), but I'd also like something that doesn't look terrible. Any suggestions? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hash Fellow robcat2075 Posted July 21, 2006 Hash Fellow Share Posted July 21, 2006 and I've discovered that the most useful thing in the world for me might be a one-key command to "normalize" CP handles. By normalize, I mean set alpha and gamma to 0, and both magnitudes to 100. There is a plug in out there that can set a series of CPs on a spline to any specific bias, dont' recall who did it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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