Wizards - finally got round to seeing it

[Roger]

So, Wizards was one of those movies on my list...you know, that list of movies that have been meaning to see but for one reason or other just haven't gotten round to yet? I think I've seen bits and pieces but never had a chance to see the whole thing.

 

Well I finally got round to watching it and I wasn't really missing anything.

 

Although, an interesting surprise was that Mark Hamill did voice work for it, although for the life of me I can't figure out which character he voiced.

 

I'm really trying to figure out who this was aimed at? It is way too dark, suggestive and violent to be a kids' movie but not nearly enough to be aimed at adults (apparently according to Bakshi it is a family film? LOL)

 

Supposedly, no pencil tests were done, all drawings went straight to production. I suspect that is true, because the animation is pretty "meh".

Lots of rotoscoping, some of which doesn't look bad, some of which makes you go "why is this in here".

 

*minor spoilers*

 

 

So the plot revolves around 2 brothers, Avatar (the good one) and Blackwolf (the evil one) living in a bombed out post-apocalyptic earth millions of years later. Elves and fairies fight against goblins and demons, and the bad guys just aren't worth a darn in a fight until their leader finds his secret weapon: a 16mm projector with Nazi propaganda (I kid you not). Using the projector (for motivation, to confuse the elves? I'm not really sure) they become an effective force and manage to force a showdown between Blackwolf and Avatar.

 

Anyway - maybe I'm spoiled by much better animation (both story and animation wise) but man, I'm almost sorry I wasted an hour and a half watching this. If you want to see a dark animation with much better quality, and almost the same story (the little guy vs. technology - but told in a much more compelling way) you'd be better served watching "9".

[Rodney]

I'm really trying to figure out who this was aimed at? It is way too dark, suggestive and violent to be a kids' movie but not nearly enough to be aimed at adults (apparently according to Bakshi it is a family film? LOL)

 

For its time (1977) 'Wizards' was pretty innovative.

The 'Vaughn Bode' style itself hadn't been seen in wide circulation (it was firmly in the realm of underground comix).

To me that style was/is the major draw of the film.

 

Bakshi was trying to push the envelop on animation toward more adult themes (Rather unfortunately IMO, that was the rut that he jumped into and stayed in his whole career). Even when doing actual kids cartoons (Mighty Mouse) he couldn't help shoehorning in drugs and other related themes). His desire all along appears to have been to make cartoons more 'real'. This is unfortunate because the reason I tend to watch movies is to escape reality. I have to give Bakshi credit though as he's always stuck to his ideals. But attempting to fit dark and gritty adult themes into cartoons has always been a fool's errand from my perspective. The effort always reveals more about the author and the baggage they carry than the characters themselves. The stories are not without merit but pander to the lowest common denominator and are more worth their weight in shock value than anything.

 

It's been awhile since I've seen Wizards (and as I've said, the 'Bode' style is the primary draw for me). At any rate, Bakshi is an extremely talented cartoonist and animator whose work speaks for itself. I do often think of 'what might have been'.

 

It's interesting that both Bode and Bakshi struggled with many of the same demons.

Bakshi has had enough of a support system in place to maintain his health and productivity but (tragically) for Bode it took the predictable path, degenerating into a terminal condition. Bode's son Mark was then left to carry on/after his father's stylistic legacy. Vaughn Bode should be studied... if not for a look into his innovative style... as a cautionary tale for all artistically inclined people.

[robcat2075]

I saw it when it came out, I think I was 16. It seemed cool then but watching it now it's pretty flat and directionless.

 

I think it was very much of its time but it wasn't a big hit back then either. In a time when animated features were rare things it was the even rarer case of a non-Disney animated feature so it has minor legend status in that regard.

 

There was a brief boomlet in the 70's of "adult" animation of which Fritz the Cat was the first and only real success and Heavy Metal was the last gasp. Disney wasn't a monolith back then so some people thought that maybe, possibly, there was some other way to do this.

 

It was worth a try and there were certainly some capable, animators available to do these projects (including our own Bob Taylor who was briefly director of TWO).

 

Looking at the IMDb there are only about 10 animators! That's cutting it to the bone, I salute them for getting it done, which is the second hardest thing about making an animated feature.

[Roger]

I wasn't trying to hate on Bakshi, his work with Mighty Mouse is great.

 

But Wizards really came off as having a weak story, coupled with the adult themes for shock value.

I generally tend to agree that trying to do any sort of adult-themed story in animation is probably a bad idea. Animation will always have the stigma of being a "children's ghetto". Maybe it just isn't possible to do "gritty" in animation without it seeming adolescent.

 

I do have to say, that the background paintings/drawings were incredibly detailed, I did like those and some of the character design was interesting, but as a work overall I didn't care for it.

 

I don't know what demons Bakshi struggled/struggles with, but reading the wikipedia entry on Bode, that was a sad end to an otherwise productive life.

[Roger]

 

I think it was very much of its time but it wasn't a big hit back then either. In a time when animated features were rare things it was the even rarer case of a non-Disney animated feature so it has minor legend status in that regard.

 

There was a brief boomlet in the 70's of "adult" animation of which Fritz the Cat was the first and only real success and Heavy Metal was the last gasp. Disney wasn't a monolith back then so some people thought that maybe, possibly, there was some other way to do this.[/i]

>>

 

 

I think the first time I saw bits of it I was around 12 or 14? I made a mental note of it but for whatever reason just never got round to watching it. I imagine for the time it was innovative, especially for being a non-Disney feature.

 

I've also seen Heavy Metal, and the only vignettes I cared for were the B-17 Bomber story and the Taxi story. There might have been another (Taarna maybe?) but it has been so long since I've seen it.

 

But I think Rodney is right, I don't know if it is the medium itself that doens't lend itself to adult themes, or the fact that the stories claiming to be "adult oriented" are more adolescent oriented, at best.

 

I always thought it would be neat to do another film similar to Heavy Metal, or maybe pick a single story and flesh it out more.

[robcat2075]

There is a Heavy Metal II, I saw it at a festival, it was modestly watchable. It has just one story.

 

There has been talk of a new CG Heavy Metal for years but it never gets off the ground.

 

I'm a big fan of the original, I think it's the best of that adolescent-targeted genre from that era.

 

I suppose Disney's Black Cauldron could classed as an attempt at the field.

[Roger]

CG Heavy Metal would be cool. I've been meaning to pick up a copy of the old one, if only for the 3 vignettes I mentioned.

I got a huge kick out of the Southpark Heavy Metal spoof.

 

I saw Black Cauldron a loooong time ago. I also read the books that the movie is based on. The books are better.

[Simon Edmondson]

http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/ralphb..._ref_map=%5B%5D

 

A friend spotted this.

Its not really my cup of tea but, it might be of interest ?

simon

[zandoriastudios]

I liked Wizards. And I thought it was hilarious at the time. I'm a big fan of Ralph Bakshi and his maverick spirit ! If you haven't watched his speech at Comic Con about getting off your butt and just making something, you will find it inspirational:

http://zandoria.wordpress.com/2008/11/14/i...ion-production/

 

I don't think animation is or has to be just for kids. A lot of japanese anime has adult stories (and I don't mean the hentai--but clearly there is a market not for kids).

[Simon Edmondson]

I liked Wizards. And I thought it was hilarious at the time. I'm a big fan of Ralph Bakshi and his maverick spirit ! If you haven't watched his speech at Comic Con about getting off your butt and just making something, you will find it inspirational:

http://zandoria.wordpress.com/2008/11/14/i...ion-production/

 

I don't think animation is or has to be just for kids. A lot of japanese anime has adult stories (and I don't mean the hentai--but clearly there is a market not for kids).

 

 

William

I like the maverick spirit, I like the range and variety of visual styles, just not so keen on the subject matter by and large. I 'm off to an animation show this evening, if the weather allows, and it and the audience would be at one with your view regarding animation not just being for kids. The audience for Aardman's work is not just kids and the work of Jan Svankmajer ( sp ?) is definitely not for kids. They would probably find it rather disturbing if they did watch it. I've been reading a number of the AVA Basics series of books on Animation the past few weeks and there was a section in one of them about the female animators working on Fritz the Cat. Apparently at least two of them left the project because of Bakshi's attitude to them as females and his depiction of sex in the film. In contrast I saw an animated feature called "Chico and Rita" about 18 months ago which was beautifully done, very stylish, had adult themes throughout and one english critic said"it had the best sex scene in a film that year , live or animated". Personal preference I guess.

regards

simon

[Rodney]

I tend to be critical of Bakshi... I wish that wasn't the case... but that is just my view.

Where it comes to animation, I just wish that 'adult' equated to 'makes sense without requiring a lobotomy'.

 

It is my estimation that after all this time... after a lifetime in animation... Ralph Bakshi still aims for 'adult' at the expense of producing 'mature'.

He's not alone in the approach and it's one reason why animation aimed specifically at adults seldom works for me.

It's like never getting over the shock of seeing/hearing a cartoon character say a cuss word for the first time and feeling giddy because it's such a novelty.

"Dude! Did you see that!?!!"

Yes, I did dude.

 

It's interesting that Bakshi's kickstarter appears to exemplify this approach in the form of returning to the good ol' days of Bakshi's youth.

Coney Island must have been a great place to visit but I feel a slight disinterest coming on when I consider visiting the Coney Island that Bakshi will produce.

The reason I have any interest at all is that I see the talent and potential in Bakshi and have a fatal tendency to root for the underdog.

 

Bakshi is an artist in the true sense of that word.

I wish that didn't read as a pejorative but that seems to be what Bakshi prefers.

[robcat2075]

Roger mentioned Bakshi's Mighty Mouse revival in the 80's.

 

That was a pretty good effort. Amazingly good considering the state of TV animation at the time. That was one of those shows that made me want to be an animator.

 

I guess he had John Kricfalusi involved in that series, too.

 

[Roger]

Roger mentioned Bakshi's Mighty Mouse revival in the 80's.

 

That was a pretty good effort. Amazingly good considering the state of TV animation at the time. That was one of those shows that made me want to be an animator.

 

I guess he had John Kricfalusi involved in that series, too.

 

 

I actually donated to John K's Kickstarter. Honestly, if he's gotta go begging for money, what hope do the rest of us have, LOL

70s and 80s animation was mostly god-awful. I won't name names, but I'm sure you know what studios I'm thinking of.

When Ren and Stimpy came along in the 90s it was a breath of fresh air. It was a kids show but delightfully subversive

[Rodney]

I actually donated to John K's Kickstarter. Honestly, if he's gotta go begging for money, what hope do the rest of us have, LOL

 

Very good point!

 

It was quite a revelation when I was hanging out with Don Bluth regularly and he shared with us that even he struggled with getting financial support to produce animation. Now granted, Don is mostly retired from being in the thick of animated feature films but it is truly a sad statement when animators/directors as talented as those who have produced the blockbusters of old spend their time on trivial projects that barely pay for themselves... or even lose money at them.

 

The plus side of this of course is/was that due to the free time that such highly talented people have they have tended to devote a good portion of it to teaching folks like me who would never in a million years have had that opportunity. I know Gerry and some others here in the forum have been able to work with other high profile animators/directors due to their willingness to share their experience.

 

Sadly, (and from my perspective... nothing official) the support that Don expected in his weekly seminars just wasn't sufficient to keep an online presense so his forum has been mostly dormant for the past year. I've watched many other animators delve into the online mentoring arena as well only to have similar experiences and they quickly fade away. High expectations... low return on investment... never a good thing. It's too bad really, because there certainly is interest... or there should be. The time to realize that all that knowledge is fading away is not in twenty more years... it's today!

 

 

John K does seem to have an avid following and I wish him well.

I wouldn't say I'd never support a project of his but his interests are consistently too esoteric for me for me to support his current effort.

Supporting his current project would be suggesting I'd like to see animation of that type when I think we see far too much of it already.

 

When Ren and Stimpy came along in the 90s it was a breath of fresh air. It was a kids show but delightfully subversive

 

Yes, but then every animated show had to be delightfully subversive... which come to think of it... it still mostly is... less delightful... more subversive... but... hey, at least it's animation. Flash forward to the present and entire networks are devoted to that 24 hours a day.