Proyected Surfaces/Curves?

[Ramón López]

HELLO! Well, at first I thought that in A:M there must be some feature that let you have a proyected surface over other surface subordinating the last one to the first one, or something like that... ehm, well, I really don't know if I can explain it in english... but sure you know how NURBS works, isn't? You can have a curve subordinate to another surface so you can deforme that surface and the proyected curve automatically follows it and is deformed consequently... And well, as Spline systems are a little "similar" to NURBS in a certain way... I wondered if I was missing something and that feature can be done or even be emulated in some easy way with A:M, really it'd be SO useful in lots of situations...

 

Well, at least I know that you can constraint a bone to a surface but I think this can't help too much, so what do you think? Maybe it could be emulated using SimCloth? It seems no easy and moreover I know practically nothing about Simcloth yet so... THANKS for/if any help!

[heyvern]

Ramón! Is that you?

 

Check into distortion grids. That sounds like what you are after. A distortion grid is a box or 3D grid with variable units that can be used to distort an object.

 

I don't have a ton of experience with them except when modeling. There are actually two types of distortion grids.

 

The first one is used in a modeling window and it's settings are found under "Options" in the modeling tab. This one is used to "permanently" distort a mesh or portions of it in the modeling window.

 

The second type of distortion grid can be animated in a choreography. This is good for squash and stretch type effects. The main difference between this and what you are thinking of is that in AM the distortion grid is always a cube. It doesn't conform to the shape of the model.

 

Like I said I don't have a lot of experience with it but it should be covered in the help and you can do a search on the forum for it to find out more.

 

-vern

[Ramón López]

Ey, Hey, HI! Yeah, it's me I saw you here a time ago but... well, as I thought that you hate me

 

...Jeje, well, THANK YOU very much for your post, really I have my eyes puted on that Distortion Box feature since I knew it existed cause it seems to affect CPs animation in a very "similar" way as a certain unpopular (but ESSENTIAL to me) script that I wrote for AS time ago, I mean it seems influence CPs motion in relation of his actual CP frame position instead his zero frame CP position, as I said it's difficult to explain to me here, but I trust that boxes will save my life in the future, when I really know how to use'm at least... uf, A:M is SO much huge to me compared with the other one, you know... Well, but although Distortion Boxes can help to animate surfaces (or objects) over other surfaces or objects during animation, really I was reffering to another diferent situation... that I need, in example, is can animate easily (and "careless") something like this:

 

Imagine a big rounded (but not perfectly rounded) head with a flat big black eyes that must by animated slipping over that deforming head to look here and there, really I need a way to can animate quickly that eyes and it follow the shape of the head like if they was something like slipping "band aids", and all without worry if the eyes go through the head surface and viceversa independently the order of the animation shapes was made... Cause of this I thought in SimCloth too as a possibility, althought I have serious doubts about if that could be a real solution, cause, in example, Cloth simulation doesnt works in real time...

 

Well, sorry for give you such a speech, but this is so important to me... And as I said, I remember that this kind of "subordinated surfaces" was easily achieved in other 3D softwares which I had experimenting in the past, so if someone thinks I'm missing something I'd be incredibly grateful if could open my eyes... Hmmm... well, THANKS!

[heyvern]

Ramón,

 

I never hated you! We both have... strong opinions and are very outspoken. So we might butt heads every once in a while.

 

-------------------

 

Ah yes!

 

I get it now.

 

I don't think you can do this. You want those "sliding eyes" over the round head to be actual geometry, a mesh correct?

 

Interestingly, I came across this very same situation. I needed to animate a face on a completely flat surface, a box, that also would bend and move. I wanted to do just what you describe; project a model onto the surface of another shape.

 

The only thing I could do was to animate the face separately and then apply that animation to the box as a decal.

 

I set up a rig so that I could see the face and animate it while also animating the body of the character. This way the acting was "lined up". I then would render that face by itself and decal onto the body or the box.

 

-vern

[KenH]

I'm not sure exactly if this is what you're after, but there's a surface constraint that allows you to constraint a model to a surface.....such as a tear rolling down a cheek. In fact, KeeKat's eyes use it.

[heyvern]

Not quite good enough Ken.

 

He is after sort of a "projection". I had wished for this kind of thing before. The ability to "project" another "object" onto the surface. I even thought of something like projecting the animated output of another choreography as a decal kind of thing.

 

A surface constraint won't align another "flat" large mesh shape to an irregular surface. Small shapes like a tear will work but large "flat" shapes like an eye won't. They don't distort to align with the surface. Aligning a tree or someone walking on an irregular surface works with a surface constraint... but "sliding" a flat shape right on the surface won't.

 

The dream would be the ability to "project" an object as if it were an environment map onto another surface (without having to render it first of course.)

 

-vern

[Rodney]

Another angle to approach from isn't 'Does A:M have this?' but rather "What I'm trying to do is ...."

 

 

What is it that you are trying to accomplish via projected surfaces and curves?

 

It sounds like something Simcloth or one of Steffen Gross's plugins (like Newton Dynamics) should be able to do.

 

As it seems like you are already moving in that direction dDefinitely look into Simcloth.

[Ramón López]

oOhhh... That damned IE back arrow button ...I had wrote almost a whole large post explaining a lot of things about all this issue but I've lost it accidentally in less than a second , with the hard work and time that takes to me try to communicate me with you guys... ahhh...

 

Well, HI! Of course one thing that I remember have written there was... THANK YOU to all!!! It's always a great relief to know one is not alone, yeah... And another thing was... Ey! Heyvern, you don't only understood e-x-a-c-t-l-y what I was meaning but you explained it better! It seems as if we always be fighting for the same (or very similar) purposes/interests! Hmmm, maybe that could have been the cause for we "crashed" at first, jeje... well, but I'm a little more happy now that it seems we don't have to be... enemys? ...Ah, the other thing, well, and as you Rodney says, since probably the feature with I (and Hey) have been dreaming doesn't exist and probably/unfortunately won't exist in a near future... I have been looking for different solutions and I have started for study again that Surface constraint just in case when I did it in the past I missed something, and well, it seems that I'm missing more than that, cause now I've not be able to find nothing on that Pupil and Eye KeeKat's bone Constraints/Relationships/Poses (apart of the typical Aim At "Eyetarget" constraint, of course) that cannot explain why the pupil follow the Eye surface and changes his size and direction accordingly of the position over the Eye be... And I have been searching for all the hierarchy but no way... Well, if someone has any clue about this I'd be very grateful again...

 

And... the last thing that I have been thinking is why (when I can undestand'em) don't treat to mix the two techniques? I mean, the SimCloth has the inconvenient that can't be simulated in real time, while Surface constraint has not this problem, what about if the bone constraint be on charge of make the entire flat object (the eye in this case) be translated over the other surface (the head) in a "rought" way for real time and animation purposes and once that be done you always could run Cloth simulation for automatic surface/CP level adjustments? Well, as I said it's still only a thought and I must study more cause all that features are still a "little" mystery to me...

 

Uf, what a post, definitelly a little more large than the previous one Well, sorry and thank you again for your time and dedication, you don't know how much important this is to me... GREETINGS!

[heyvern]

The main problem with what you want to do is how Hash splines work in AM.

 

Splines aren't like polygons. What you draw is what you get. No matter what you do to a shape if it doesn't have the exact same points in the exact same spot as the surface you want to constrain to it will never "line up" perfectly. That was the problem I had. I could get it ALMOST perfect but then the eyes would penetrate the surface of the object I was trying to conform to.

 

Ramon, the trick I came up with was that "rig" for the face.

 

I created a fully rigged completely flat face. I placed this model inside the same choreography as the "body" or shape I wanted it to conform to. I then put a constraint on this face model so it always pointed at the camera.

 

I then animated the face and body "together". There was body and facial animation that had to work together. I needed to do them both so the acting matched. When I finished I was able to use the action in the chor to render just the face and decal that animation onto my shape ending up with exactly what I needed. However it did require that extra step.

 

-vern

[heyvern]

Here is a sample of what I was talking about.

 

This is an old old sample. I have this project backed up since I've been working on other stuff and don't have a current one available.

 

The face up there in the corner is actually a model. I can click on it at any time and animate it. Since it is always in view I can see what type of emotion it needs for the action. AND since it is in the same choreography as the main action it is always the right length and timing and drops right in.

 

http://www.lowrestv.com/lowres/portfolio/ck/face_cameraB.mov

 

-vern

[Ramón López]

...THANK YOU! (again ) Definitely that example is moving over the similar line of work that I want to get cause finally I'd like to work with flat 2D characters taking advantage of only one side patchs to simplification, so probably my slipping flat surfaces should slip over other flat (althought in the 3 axis deformed) surface, that makes that the use of SimCloth wins weight like a possible solution? Well, I don't know yet...

 

On the other hand, the use of decals instead patchs in that way, hmmm... I bet it's a very good technique! But I'm not sure if I could work in that way cause I think I need animate in realtime and in the most "quick" way plus have the possibility of modify as easily and intuitive way as possible, get this won't be easy at first, I know, but that nobody will notice... however I think that if I'm not happy animating my characteres never will be and finally that will be noticeable... cause of that it's so important to me... Well, at least I'm sure you understand me cause I've seen your animation method quest over that Anime Studio characters so, as you can see, resolve the interactivity issue must be crucial to me too

 

Well, and now at least I have been investigating here and I've found tons of information about Surface constraints and related issues, now I know why I was not able to understand that Keekat's eyes setup, but I think I get it now and definitely that way wouldn't work to me... nonetheless all that I've seen about Surface constraints have filled me with a little feeling of hope, it's not perfect and we knew, cause it adjust the entire object to the surface instead the individual CP's of it, but it woks even over animated surfaces as well as over very low CP density surfaces, I think if I finally get conbine both, Surface constraints to resolve the main task and SimCloth for little adjustments, I could have something... the worse thing is that it seems that you still have tried it and it only can be ALMOST perfec, I know too... Uf, but I know myself and I'm sure I won't rest until I see it with my own eyes ...Well, now I'll continue investigating, THANKS & GREETINGS!

[KenH]

Hmmmm......what about.....and this is a very convoluted way that may not even work (at all/for this case):

 

Say you have a plane with about 10 cps in it. Make 10 bones and assign each cp to a different bone (making sure the bone's axis is at that same co-ordinates as the cp that's assigned to it).

Now you could set a surface constraint for each of the 10 bones and they "direct" their individual cps over the surface of another object.

 

I really should test it first, but don't have time right now.

[Ramón López]

Oh, yeah! I tried it in the past but I really should try it again, cause for some reason it did't works the first time although I never could understand why... Why couldn't it work, ahm?? Well, as it was one of my first A:M experiments maybe here we have the answer, ehm... Well! Really now that I have get some little things be a good moment to try it again! Let's see... Although as you said that solution can result a little convoluted even for my taste, yes... and maybe for that reason I dropped it so soon, althought OTOH I liked that "solution" cause if it works you could see the changes practically in real time, so... definitely I think this could be the moment to take it again into account... Well, THANKS for extend the range of posibilities!!! And what a huge range, by the way...

 

EDIT: Jeje, after some tests I can see easily which could have been the reason cause it didn't work at the first time, lets say that... basically all it's a little more complicated (still) that I thought... I'll try some things more tomorrow cause now I really can't see the reason for it couldn't works, it seems that more bones than I thought at first it'll be necessary, well...

[heyvern]

The real problem is absolutely "thin" shapes conformed to the surface of another shape. No matter how perfect it is... it will never stay on the surface. there will always be some places where a spline or point will intersect the surface it is on.

 

I don't think sim cloth is the answer here either... same problem. No matter how perfectly matched the shapes are something will bend and intersect the surface of the object.

 

Here is something I just thought of last night but have not tested. I think it might work but would have to be a very simple style.

 

Use booleans. Imagine a mouth shape that is a boolean. It "cuts" the shape you want on the irregular surface of another object and leaves the material of the boolean shape.

 

This could work for eyes, mouths etc. The only trouble I see would be that you wouldn't want an actual "hole" in the surface of the object. This might be handled by using a transparency over the hole and not having any shading on the cutter object. It would not recive or cast a shadow. The transparent "surface" would also have the specular and surface attributes of the whole shape. Creating an illusion of a "projection".

 

This intrigues me... The next time I have AM open I may do a quick and dirty test to see what happens.

 

-vern

[KenH]

I know what you mean about the object not always matching the surface. I think having the object more spline heavy than the surface should solve that problem.

[Ramón López]

HI! And, as always, thanks for reply ...Oh, I still thought about using booleans but I dislike the fact of they are not real time visible plus some other disadvantages in renders and integration of that "effect" that I read in the manual or in other place... Anyway I can't discard any possibility yet and all of them are always very welcomed, of course maybe with some other point of view of the same idea we can get something great, who knows... And about SimCloth... well, I'm now more inmerse in Surface constraints combined with Distort Boxes investigations, I don't know why, but it seems to me like a more reliable way of work, and due to the "simplicity" of my designs (and anyway I'll need use the special power of that magic boxes on it) maybe could be the most convenient solution taking into account all the peculiarities... well, now only left it works...