Kelley Posted January 21, 2006 Share Posted January 21, 2006 Just as I solved my video card problem with fresh drivers, and entered into [hopefully] A:M heaven...I start getting white spline lines showing through the decals. 'Happened last night with lines on a roof. Now again with the wheels of this armored car. [it's not happening with the other objects because they are older bits brought over from the tank model.][attachmentid=13517] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KenH Posted January 21, 2006 Share Posted January 21, 2006 Check in the properties of the wheels. Maybe render as lines is set to ON. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kelley Posted January 21, 2006 Author Share Posted January 21, 2006 Check in the properties of the wheels. Maybe render as lines is set to ON. Thanks Ken...it would have been a simple and elegant solution. But it proved not so. 'Render As Lines' is OFF. The nature of the beast seems to have changed a bit in these last renders. I'm attaching a front/back pic. The inner surfaces of the wheel disc were colored by assigning color [black] in the Properties. At least the white lines went away! [attachmentid=13520] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KenH Posted January 21, 2006 Share Posted January 21, 2006 How do they render? It might be that the realtime display is low. Try pressing Pageup. I'm finding it hard to see which lines you don't want. It looks like you have a decal too so maybe the patches are flipped the wrong way. Select the patch and press the F key. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NancyGormezano Posted January 21, 2006 Share Posted January 21, 2006 I'm having a difficult time making sense of how you have decaled your wheels? or do you have a material applied? - If a decal - I'm also wondering if the key color for your image being used as a decal is causing the groups surface color to show thru? set the key color to something that is not contained in the image - (like blue or red) isolate the wheel group & show us a screen grab of the properties & tell us what version AM you're using (pc, mac, 11? 12?). How are you rendering this? or is it a screen grab? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kelley Posted January 22, 2006 Author Share Posted January 22, 2006 How do they render? It might be that the realtime display is low. Try pressing Pageup. I'm finding it hard to see which lines you don't want. It looks like you have a decal too so maybe the patches are flipped the wrong way. Select the patch and press the F key. The 'F' key didn't do anything...for good or ill. Seems like it should have cured the problem if it were the problem, or, made things worse if it were not. But nothing happened at all. The lines which were white over the decal have now become 'decal-colored' lines over the default patch color. But only one one side of the car. Check out the other outer side! Then, on the inside, the color applied from the Properties [a solid black] is fine on one side, and multi-splintered on the other. Is it a bad idea to have 'patch color' and 'decal' on one object? And...I pressed the PageUp key right before the render. Didn't seem to make a difference. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kelley Posted January 22, 2006 Author Share Posted January 22, 2006 I'm having a difficult time making sense of how you have decaled your wheels? or do you have a material applied? - If a decal - I'm also wondering if the key color for your image being used as a decal is causing the groups surface color to show thru? set the key color to something that is not contained in the image - (like blue or red) isolate the wheel group & show us a screen grab of the properties & tell us what version AM you're using (pc, mac, 11? 12?). How are you rendering this? or is it a screen grab? Nancy, thanks. Check my response to KenH for the decals/materials. Where is the Key Color found? I know I saw it months ago, but can't remember where. [somewhere in Properties, as I recall] The pictures I attached are renders [top icon in the Render Tools], then a screen capture>paste into Photoshop>Save for Web. I'm using 11.1 on a PC {HP Pavilion 762n/ 2.2Ghz/ 512Mz RAM. What part of the Properties are you interested in? If I open all the little arrows, it won't fit on the screen. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oakchas Posted January 22, 2006 Share Posted January 22, 2006 Robert, Why not try tools/options (I'm not certain of that but fairly sure) and reset to defaults... I guess I'd make certain the models/actions/etc. were saved seperately instead of imbedded in the project before I did that. just a thought, but I'm away from my A:M machine right now, so I can't confirm. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NancyGormezano Posted January 22, 2006 Share Posted January 22, 2006 Hi - key color is found in the images folder (see pic) - in my example I have key color set to pink - if I had made it white then the color of the underlying groups would have show thru. In my image I've also illustrated the difference between a decal & patch images (1 image/per patch). Patch images are made by rt clicking on a group & choosing add image - So not sure if you added image or applied a decal (rt click on model - choose new, decal) Also - as for rendering - there's quick render (top most left icon in render group) versus render to file. Quick render does not always give an accurate representation of final rendering (bec of video card differences) The info that I've shown for my simple model would be the info that you could look at for your wheel group to see if theres anything funny... hope this helps some... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dhar Posted January 22, 2006 Share Posted January 22, 2006 - What's the difference between Add Image and Apply Decal? - Does each affect file size differently? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NancyGormezano Posted January 22, 2006 Share Posted January 22, 2006 - What's the difference between Add Image and Apply Decal? - Does each affect file size differently? The difference is mainly in how you want things to look - the decal can span patches - whereas the patch image (add image) is a quick way to assign images to a group of patches for tiling type patterns (usually 1/patch gets assigned - but you can set a repeat value for x & y) - Try it... you can also rotate the images on each patch. Both decals & patch images can be applied with different methods - color, bump, cookiecut, etc. But only decals can have a different projection type - planar, spherical, cylindrical I'm not sure about affecting file size - but I have noticed that it takes longer to render if I have a lot of patch images as opposed to decals ... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dhar Posted January 22, 2006 Share Posted January 22, 2006 Thanks Nancy. I'll try both methods on a single object and see what I can come up with. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kelley Posted January 22, 2006 Author Share Posted January 22, 2006 Hi - key color is found in the images folder (see pic) - in my example I have key color set to pink - if I had made it white then the color of the underlying groups would have show thru. In my image I've also illustrated the difference between a decal & patch images (1 image/per patch). Patch images are made by rt clicking on a group & choosing add image - So not sure if you added image or applied a decal (rt click on model - choose new, decal) Also - as for rendering - there's quick render (top most left icon in render group) versus render to file. Quick render does not always give an accurate representation of final rendering (bec of video card differences) The info that I've shown for my simple model would be the info that you could look at for your wheel group to see if theres anything funny... hope this helps some... Thanks again. Now I think I've got it fixed in my mind where to go to set Key Color. In this case, howe're, it was not the problem. My Key Color is now bright pink throughout. Here's another thing to consider: on the back sides of the wheel disc [on one side of the car] the black color fragments. But not on the other side. On the tires, which were made at the same time and colored in the same way, it doesn't render at all! [ I assigned color by hiding everything except the whole tire, or, the back face only of the wheel disc, select all points, and pick a Diffuse Color from the Properties] The front of the wheel discs are decals applied by hiding everything except the disc, going to Front View, and dragging a decal from the Library to the Modeling window, and resizing>applying. On one side of the car, the decal fragments like the black inside of the wheel disc. On the other side of the car, the decal is rendering only where there are splines. Go figure. [attachmentid=13551] For what it's worth...here's the finished car. I tremble at the prospect of decaling, after today's debacle. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NancyGormezano Posted January 22, 2006 Share Posted January 22, 2006 Hmmm... perhaps the fastest way to see what is happening is for you to post a zip file that contains your model & the image you're using to decal the tires, and any other materials you might be using. I assume you do not also have a material applied to the wheels? You also could post a screen capture of just the wheels with wireframes. Post it from the view you are using to decal. Also post the image that you're trying to use as a decal. I was a little confused by your saying you went into front? view to decal your wheel. I would have expected you to go to a side view (left or right) if the hood of your car is facing front. Perhaps this is the problem? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KenH Posted January 22, 2006 Share Posted January 22, 2006 I'm also confused as heck. The only other thing I can think of is the central circle of cps in the wheels are too close together....thus creating corrupted patches. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
heyvern Posted January 22, 2006 Share Posted January 22, 2006 Have you done a Render to File yet? You should try that too. The "on screen" render is not the same as render to file. Sometimes it can give different results. ----------------------- This is indeed very strange. Nothing for it but to zip up the project for some of us to look at. Or at least just one wheel. For a really quick look first... zip the image file... the one you use as the decal... don't save it into another format. zip the exact image and post it. If you save it as something else... if the problem is in the image it won't show. I have a funny feeling about the image. The render line artifacts look strange... like they are aliased... Vernon "!" Zehr Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kelley Posted January 23, 2006 Author Share Posted January 23, 2006 Have you done a Render to File yet? You should try that too. The "on screen" render is not the same as render to file. Sometimes it can give different results. ----------------------- This is indeed very strange. Nothing for it but to zip up the project for some of us to look at. Or at least just one wheel. For a really quick look first... zip the image file... the one you use as the decal... don't save it into another format. zip the exact image and post it. If you save it as something else... if the problem is in the image it won't show. I have a funny feeling about the image. The render line artifacts look strange... like they are aliased... Vernon "!" Zehr Vern: Thanks for checking in. I'm posting two .zip files. The first is a sampling of the .tga images I've used. [The full file was too large to load, even zipped. But these are images that have gone bad] The second is the project itself. And...the latest development of today. I finished the armored car. Had to re-build the wheels to take the images and all seemed well until close to the end, when the problem started all over again. On a hunch, I installed the armored car in the Choreography window to see if the render would be any better there. Not only was it the same, but most all the decaling on the other models is gone. Went back and opened up the individual models to see if the images were still there. The Image container still had placeholders, [ the white star on red field and Name of Image] but the icon of the decal was gone. I rendered one or two, and sure enough, the models are all pale grey. I did try to do a 'Render To File'...but it indicated that it was going to make an .avi [for one frame?] so I clicked out of it. I'll try it again, but I don't think that's my problem. Down deep, I suspect that my computer is the culprit. A:M develops problems that don't persist. They go away [sometimes come back] but it's on-again, off-again. I'm wondering if I should get a new machine and dedicate it to A:M and Photoshop? Have to think about that. In the meantime, good luck on looking at the files. [attachmentid=13605][attachmentid=13606][attachmentid=13607][attachmentid=13614] MOV._FOX._PROJECT.zip TARGA_SAMPLER.zip Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NancyGormezano Posted January 23, 2006 Share Posted January 23, 2006 I tried loading your project - the models that come in this project look nothing like what you're posting - I get some fish models, rusted pilings, pond bottom. Please post JUST the tank model with ONLY the targas for the tank. Do not post a project file (prj). Post JUST the TANK mdl file. Save your tank model to a separate file When I looked at the targa images (camoflage, 3 wheel images) - I would say that the wheel tgas are quite small. May or may not be a problem, in that the resolution is too low, causing the aliasing. But I also notice the "green" wheel image has an alpha channel in varying degrees of transparency - so depending on how you are using this tga image along with the other two - it could be causing your problem. In fact, I'm betting on it. Impossible to tell without the model or a screen grab of the PWS showing how you have the decals applied to the wheels. I don't think it's your computer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kelley Posted January 23, 2006 Author Share Posted January 23, 2006 Nancy: Thanks for jumping in here. Things just keep getting weirder. First, I'm sorry about all those fish. That's another project entirely. I copied the "Moving Foxhole.prj" file in it's entirety, without looking in it. Looking at the Objects in PWS right now, there are none of the fish models. I'm at a loss as to how they got included. So...here's another .zip file with the Armored Car only. [the tank is fine. It and the two troopers are the only objects to retain their decaling...though the troops are mainly patch colored.] Yesterday, after discovering that the decals were gone from the street scene, I decaled the armored car anyway. By day's end, the decals were corrupting [as per my last post yesterday] Today, I did a "Render To File" as Vern suggested. The street was the same, and the Armored Car looked very odd. I rendered the .mdl only and it's almost completely bare. So the problem seems to be progressive. You've already looked at the pertinent .tga files for the car. True, the wheels are small. They were copped from images on the internet, at 72dpi. But they scaled up OK in Photoshop. They're pixelated on the car, but the car will only be seen breifly, in motion, at mid-range, and in low light. [check street scene] The 'green wheel' does have an alpha channel, but that wheel image was not used. Note the House of Savoy crest on the door-side, the Indian head/22 unit mark on the turret, and the white 22/orange bar on the radiator. Those all had alpha channels, and they're OK. I opened up the PWS Decal folder for you. I hope I'm showing the section you want to see. If not, I'll do another. Good luck. ARMORED_CAR.zip Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NancyGormezano Posted January 23, 2006 Share Posted January 23, 2006 okey dokey - good news - it ain't your computer, it ain't the decals - it's the wheel part of the model itself. I was getting the same effect as you - weird rendering to screen (checkered pattern) as well as render to file (white lines). You had somehow created two "inner wheels" per tire - and they were interfering with each other as they were in the same place. I'm attaching a corrected wheel model (it's just the wheel) - use this one to replace all the wheels on your armored car. Yes - t'was weird. goodwheel.zip Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dhar Posted January 24, 2006 Share Posted January 24, 2006 Go Nancy Go! I didn't know you can change tires Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kelley Posted January 24, 2006 Author Share Posted January 24, 2006 Wonder Woman indeed! That was a slick bit of sleuthin'. Allow me to pose two more questions: [1] Since something was duped twice, and one model is exactly sitting on top of the other, how did you see there were two? And...[2] Where did the rest of the decals on the car [and the street] get to? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NancyGormezano Posted January 24, 2006 Share Posted January 24, 2006 1] Since something was duped twice, and one model is exactly sitting on top of the other, how did you see there were two? There were multiple cues that indicated there was something funny with the wheel. But what cued me in finally was when I investigated the center ring of the wheel cps that you had probably scaled small & translated to inside the wheel to hide the hole - I noticed that when I moved them & retranslated them that there was still a ring of cps in the middle at the old place. I grabbed those and translated them & the non-decaled copy became apparent (showed up white). Another way was I clicked on a spline, hit the / to select all connected splines, and then hit hide - it was obvious it hadn't been decaled - whereas the other copy had been. Also I noticed that when I rt clicked on the decal containers to select the cps (to see what was decaled) - that sometimes the cps would turn green - and other times it wouldn't. ...[2] Where did the rest of the decals on the car [and the street] get to? Not sure I understand the question - If you mean the model I sent you - I didn't include the decals because you already have them - but the decal containers should be there & you should be queried to find them when you load up the model. You might have to select the images for each container. I removed the "weathered steel" decal container - since you didn't supply the image for it . Probably should have left it, now that I think about it. If you mean from your scene- I can only guess - I never work with my models embedded in projects. I always have my models saved in their own file, and I don't change the location of the image files that I use for the decals. Choreographys work quite well for bringing in all the models (from their own locations) without having to embed everything into a project file. I'm not sure how projects search for or embed image files. I only embed projects when I have to send stuff to someone, (and even then I think you have to provide the images separately?). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KenH Posted January 24, 2006 Share Posted January 24, 2006 Nancy is correct. You can't embed images into a project....they can be just too large. So, the project references them in another location. You hadn't included any images in your upload so as Nancy says, they're still in the same location on your hard drive as they always were. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kelley Posted January 24, 2006 Author Share Posted January 24, 2006 Nancy is correct. You can't embed images into a project....they can be just too large. So, the project references them in another location. You hadn't included any images in your upload so as Nancy says, they're still in the same location on your hard drive as they always were. I'm hazy on what constitutes 'Embedded' or 'Not Embedded'. It hasn't been an issue until now, and I had other terminology to tangle with. Looking at the screen caps., I'm assuming that the models under 'Objects' are Embedded. I then pull as many copies as needed into the Choreography. Thus, the others, under Project>New...are Not Embedded [?] I am drawn to this logic because the three models that did not lose their decals in the street scene were Tubs, Pepperbox and the Tank...and only they exist outside the Project. I don't think [?] my images are embedded. I keep a file called Texture Vault on the hard drive into which all my .tga images go. Within that, when working up a specific project, [like 'Moving Foxhole'] I make a another folder with the Project Name, and put all relevant images in there. Then I make seperate folders in my Images Library for 'Tank', 'Armored Car', 'House', etc., and use Windows Explorer to transfer the images over. When applying decals, I drag from the library to the model, it prompts me to choose 'Decal' / 'Rotoscope', and I do. Is this the way to go, or have I invented some bad habits? I'm also attaching another pic. of the Armored Car. Note that there are still white lines. [Wheels look great, though!!] I've looked at the wire-frame, expanded it as far as possile [just one CP on the screen] and I can't see any sign of a second object there. If you folks haven't deleted the .zip of the car, could you take another look to see if I've missed the obvious? Thanks. I really appreciate all the help. [attachmentid=13649][attachmentid=13650][attachmentid=13651] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NancyGormezano Posted January 24, 2006 Share Posted January 24, 2006 White lines - Given that you've changed your model - I can only guess that perhaps? the white lines that are now showing on the body are surfaces that you believe you have decaled - but aren't really. To test this out - 2 ways - 1) change the default color of your entire model (under surface) to "something other than white" & see if those lines render as "something other than white" and as well to isolate all those surfaces: 2) right click on decals (in your model) and select "Group undeclared control points", select hide (see image). You may be surprised. maybe not. If there are some groups that you thought you had decaled and they show up as undecaled - it might mean you are dealing with double groups - or you are just seeing the undecaled groups. As for decal procedure: as long as you don't move your images on your hard drive after you've applied the decal - I can't see that there would be a problem. I don't use the library feature of A:M. I have my own image cataloging software (thumbs+). I can drag images into A:M - but I don't get the decal/rotoscope dialog. It just adds them to the images folder - I still have to apply them, (or change the image in an already existing decal container). eg, I then have to rt click on the object - select new/decal/select image/apply. If your model is coming up with the decal container without the image - I would say you have moved your images after applying. (to test: Fill up all the blank decal containers & save the NewNameModel. Then start new project - bring in NewNameModel - if decals are gone - send in bug report) Now as for embedding...Like I said - I don't use it. But I believe models are only embedded if one has selected "Embed all" under the project. And then saves the project. Images are not embedded as Ken said. I don't see a switch to "unembed all". Now since I don't use this feature (as I would hopelessly confuse myself) - I believe the way to unembed a model is to save it separately as in "Save as". Someone else would have to address this. When I start up - I always select New/ project, then import my Choreography - that brings in all the elements that I need to work with. I see no need (for me-one artist/no one else) for projects - other than if I'm working with lots of choreographies at once. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KenH Posted January 24, 2006 Share Posted January 24, 2006 When applying decals, I drag from the library to the model, it prompts me to choose 'Decal' / 'Rotoscope', and I do. Is this the way to go, or have I invented some bad habits? What do you mean by "and I do"? If you drag an image onto the model window, it will prompt you to do that yes. So, I assume you either want to make a decal or a rotoscope....right? Pick which one and click OK. Images are never embedded. Ever. The project file would increase hugely. Models can be embedded and are when you chose "Embed ALL" or individually in the file properties. In your middle image, you know what file isn't embedded because it has a floppy disk in the icon in the PWS. As for the white lines....your main body is duplicated...To fix it, select a point on the body. Press the / key. Now move the duplicate out. There's also some patches that need to be flipped on it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kelley Posted January 26, 2006 Author Share Posted January 26, 2006 Thank you all for your patience and advice. I'm going to be away from the project for a few days, but I've got everything printed out and will do some serious trouble-shooting in a bit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kelley Posted January 28, 2006 Author Share Posted January 28, 2006 'Got some time to dig into the armored car problems. You hit the nail squarely... I think the problem is that when I select, or marquee, an area/object, A:M creates a new object in 'Groups' called "untitled", and these pile up. I had seven [!] mufflers on one of the exhaust pipes. Thanks again for all the help. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KenH Posted January 28, 2006 Share Posted January 28, 2006 When you make a group, you only need to select the group name to select the cps again. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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