Vertexspline
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Posts posted by Vertexspline
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One has to give thanks to the small development team of Hash for continually working on bugs and fixing them. The version 17 cycyle has already gotten up to a letter g . that kind of TLC to a mature product is encouraging and comforting. Thanks.
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Ironically even within the thread we see some of the issues we were speaking of with Community projects. So the issues are indeed real - and the trick I suppose is managing them so they do not become obstacles you cannot hurdle and more just roadblocks were you need to take a few detours to get to your destination.
But to keep the conversation going for Ilidrake's sake----There are some realities that are harsh for the prospects and production of a large community project.
There are only a relatively small number of very talented folks that are active here. (That is not to say they are not out there but they are quiet) . Then how many of those have free time or wish to use a lot of their free time on a group project ? that limits that number yet again. This is before you even get into the other obstacles of artisty control, direction , editing , group team work, coordination issues, render times --etc etc on and on.
Its easy to see why these things do not get started or finished.
That said, I also believe there are many folks who would love to participate (And often with a sort of rose colored romantic notion of working on a large group project) . I also believe that this group may not be the most experienced nor talented despite their initial enthusiasm.
Its just the balance of power in 3d applications. 5 Percent of a community are master level users (You know who they are) , then there are maybe 15 percent more members near master level or getting close to it. The other 80 percent are in various degrees of learning. Some with more talent then others who may eventually get to the top two levels but it will take years and most will try things for a while , try to learn , get frustrated and leave before they even give things a good chance. (3d is not and easy game to play)
What i am suggesting is the one real trick ---maybe the only trick to start or complete a large community group project is you have to somehow --tap into , teach, instruct, mentor , control and direct the 80 percent of the community so they can help the masters and near masters go about there work. The old idea of the key frame ---the master worked on certain key frames and the inbetween were done by lesser artists. That is just a concept -in reality its even worse than that ---as most of this group are not capable of producing results required to have a quality product. So the Masters ----would not be working just on the "keyframes" but mentoring folks in modeling,texturing animating etc trying to harness the numbers. But what master level person really wants to be responsible for producing while at the same time mentoring? And how many folks can teach or have the extra time for it?
And this is before you even deal with all the artistic issues.
I always think anything can be done -- but one has to understand the obstacles and judge if maybe today is not such a good day to climb Mt Everest.
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I have to say ---this conversation covered a lot of issues . Did so in a succinct fashion and everyone got a few words in the mix which brought many good insights into a topic that many times ends up more in frustration and disappointment.
It does seem unlikely in the short term anyways that any large community project will be in the works .....but that certainly does not stop smaller ones from being started as Rodney outlines. And in reality- a continued focus on training, teaching, developing modeling concepts that new folks can catch on with and small projects might grow the talent pool. Which is needed for any possible larger project to have any chance.
Obviously if there were a 100 more active talented folks here ----this discussion might have swayed slightly differently. So growing the community talent pool is in effect the start of any possible larger project IMHO.
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I would agree to that statement and add actually that it would seem that it is too much for one person given rl constraints. I actually believe there needs to be director(s) acting as one unit but sharing the load. As we we know the Director's role is one of a Manager, Artist, Teacher, Coach and more. You need one driving force yes.....but you want to make any project less like a job and more like fun and creative --so 2 or three makes more sense to me.
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The idea that production is not good enough for some very talented folks is indeed one of the most difficult parameters to overcome with a community project/film. It often leads to two real problems. One as Rodney indicated the very talented artist will not accept to be connected to a project unless it is up to his or her standards. This is natural and understandable. They have an image of what something should look like and anything less is unacceptable.
The solution for that is another real problem---the director of the community project/film holds everyone tight to this high standard and it wears heavy of the lesser talented to be constantly rejected and rejected on submissions as the director attempts to keep the quality at the level required. Creating a drain on the relationship of the director and the other community members driving both groups into a frustrating circle.
Unfortunately. there is no easy solution for the immense different levels of talent for a community project /film. It's supposed to be a community thing right but ----the quality of the project needs to be near the top of the talent pool in order to attract and keep the most talented. So in reality , especially in a smaller community it becomes difficult to just get a critical mass large enough to get something done. It would also require a director(s) who can somehow harness the lesser talent without driving them away as they learn the harsh realities that this dream of making xyz is hard , hard work as submission after submission needs adjustments.
The only advantage a Community Project/film has is time. There are no real time constraints except the ability to keep the unit(s) in place over the long haul. No small feat either.
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It is a good conversation here and important to go over the ins and outs.
It seems to me that a lot of folks might like to have two comps using am . The flexibility and ability to keep modeling and rendering makes it very effective way to go. Seems to me Hash could just kind of offer a a subscription options like 1 for 79 2 for 140 3 for 180 maybe? just saying ---you would not have to alter anything then just discount the more you buy the less you pay per unit ---and maybe the extra volume sales will more than cancel the discounts lost.
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Indeed , any group effort no matter the size , is just such a difficult task to achieve. Some people , and a lot of times the most talented, just want to do everything their way. It is hard for them to bend as it were for the benefit of the project. Others just never really get into the "story" and do wish to work on a team effort but if they do not feel like this is the greatest story ever ----they lose interest quickly and certainly do not want to put all their valuable free time on that kind of project that is not so compelling in their hearts.
It takes special and kind of unusual people actually to ever finish anything with a group ---so to all those who worked on those 2 AM films. Major Applause. You are indeed a special breed.
I think the whole AM mantra of OMOC does in fact lend itself to making it more possible with AM to work solo than many other 3d suites. And why many do and can.
That said ...there are always those out there who cannot do everything well enough and do have a yearning to at least pairing up or joining forces with some folks to fill in the items of their weakness. An the idea of a community project for them is an attractive idea in concept.
In the end, any group project to be successful needs to create the opportunity for the project to somehow feel like its the greatest thing ever for everyone involved and all the time - the whole time .....and that's nearly in the realm of a dream place. Smiles
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Happy Birthday --Shelton and Jason-----hope it was very enjoyable for you.
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Happy Birthday Robert---belated but well intentioned none the less. And thanks for being such a talented teacher of all things AM in this forum.
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I think considering you are asking in a AM forum you have received very fair and objective feedback and really very good advice and comments.I would add one thing. Spline modeling in AM is different than polygonal in Blender. So that may be a deciding factor too if you are working alone most of time.
Rich
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johnl -----cute ----got a smile from me.
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Stian--After looking through this whole thread and all the modeling----I was just truly amazed. You have gifts and skills Sir beyond the excellent. On a level truly magnificent.
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william's advice is so on target---especially for part timers like most here. I need to follow that sage advice.
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hey fellows--welcome back. It does seem like folks like to return to AM ---it has that effect on you. BTW -- in my experience having been a come back person myself the latest versions of AM are so much a better experience than the older ones---so if you have any thoughts of upgrading --just do it ---you will not regret the increase in fun factor.
rich
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welcome back themike38---------if you have been gone for a number of years --you will find all the things you loved still pretty much the same but many nice new things and overall stability and speed increases that really make these latest versions the best yet. Enjoy your time here again.
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That's a mighty nice tutorial Mack -----thanks for the effort on this. Its going to be so useful for so many now and in the future.
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welcome back Heiner----
It is apparent many folks do come back to AM after some trips to other softwares -----it does say a lot about its specialness.
and as far as speaking of other software in the forums --I think if you are referencing I/O stuff for instance there has been no troubles as far as I have seen lately.
Rich
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I cannot help but think this will be a very helpful tool in acquiring new users .........as its hard to ask folks on faith that your stuff is really cool. Now that said , the next step would be ---organizing and perhaps updating as much tutorial material that can be obtained ----so in those 14 days ----you get people not frustrated but energized to subscribe or buy.
(also 14 days for folks who have jobs is not a lot of time and goes by very quickly. 21 would be so much better as it gives them thee weekends if they are not busy doing other stuff. Just my 2 cents)
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3d coat is indeed a very powerful application and would be interesting to see how folks might integrate with AM. The voxel scuplturing and retopology tools are indeed --top shelf.
rich
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thanks john ----never can have to many textures ---------
rich
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smiles ....made me chuckle -----thanks John
rich
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I think the general idea of user group meetups would be extremely helpful for many folks ....especially a group that could have a couple of more experienced folks show up. That would help draw more people knowing certain folks might be there . And these groups could really bolster some learning -------which in turn would bolster skills and which in turn would bolster example works which ultimately helps bolsters sales.........which helps bolster development. A win for everyone.
Although. Its hard to organize these things not knowing how many folks in such and such city are using AM and would like to show up etc--- but I think the idea of starting really small.....and growing it up makes sense and maybe some of these really small startups will grow up to a full scale user groups given some time.
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I have not found any troubles with 17 but then again I am not digging very deeply of late as have been trying to get better modeling----but so far for me on windows both 16 and 17 are solid.
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Voted today as well...........always happy to help an AM'er .
What is next for the community
in Contests/Challenges
Posted
Dpendleton77 -------Oh I never want to squash any potential visions that folks might have ...just trying to bring a good enough spoonful of reality. You read through this thread and lots of good folks have spoken of the difficulties of a large community group project. Many of them who worked on the 2 Hash Films so its out of experiences which carry more weight than from folks who just think they know stuff---- like me. Smiles .
Does that mean something like that could not be done again ? I hope not. I think its the ultimate validation of a software and its users. But as I have written previously ---and as you yourself indicated perhaps some more tutorials could help grow the talent faster and keep it . I imagine that the number of folks who start up with AM and drop it out of frustration are rather significant. Now I can say the same for a lot of 3d software because they are difficult but because AM has such a nice price point more folks will "try" AM then say Lightwave or MODO at $1,500 for instnace.
So I am pretty convinced the only way we will see a large community project is after a pretty strong effort to mentor a lot of folks along. Growing the pool of folks who could possibly work on a large project by many fold. Perhaps focusing the learning on the project itself. ie. If you need 100 different flowers for some scene -----make a tutorial on making (modeling/texturing) flowers and ask for folks to watch, learn and make . If you do a good job teaching ---you might end up with 50 pretty cool flowers as potential props .....follow this kind of idea for everything you need and it might actually be a way to grow the talent and complete a large project. Smiles.