Painting AM models in Zbrush

[JackMcRip]

It was post in the forum from ZBrush.com

There are a lot of renderings from this sword and a displacement head with many 3D-Tools.

Very nice to see:

http://www.pixolator.com/zbc-bin/ultimateb...f=1&t=015376&p=

 

I hope to get the same result with A:M :-)

[KenH]

Bernd: I hope you got permission to post that other persons screen grab. The sword does look very clean in that shot but hopefully AM's displacement abilities will be improved upon soon. But lighting might account for some of the defiencies in my grab.

 

Rodney: Here's the sword broken down. As you can see it has alot of patches!

[JackMcRip]

is the displacement-map image directly from zbrush, or you have convert them?

[KenH]

I brought the tiff into Z2 and put it on the model. Then I saved the obj with a bmp map.

[JackMcRip]

OK

Then there is no noise in the image?!

Then its from rendering...

[JackMcRip]

Is anywhere the sword ZBrush-File to download?

I only find the obj file.

I have not enougth know how to load the obj-file with displacement.

I load it and make the displacementmap as texture to the sword. but downt know how as displacement.

 

Is there the original sword-ZBrush-file?

I wan to make tests, too!

[KenH]

No it's only available as an obj file. You're half way there already. Just export the model with the texture on it as an obj from Z2. You can then import this into AM and just change the texture to a displacement type map.

Hints: You will have to flip the texture vertically before bringing it into AM(you can do this in Z2) and you might want to devide the mesh in Z2 before bringing it into AM as this will get more detail.

[JackMcRip]

is it practically to model in zbrush with zspheres and import in a:m ?

Or zbrush only use for texturing, bumping and displacing ?

[binder3d]

I read through all these posts but I dont get it. Do you model in AM then I guess you export it as a obj or dxf? Then in Zbrush you paint decals to the model and save it as a what? How do you export these maps from zbrush back into AM? But isnt this like what you do in Photoshop? Can someone break it down where I can get it? Thanks! John your work is really-really good!

[Heiner]

Basicly it is like this:

You model in AM, put your decals onto your model (empty pictures), then you export your model as OBJ, which is imported into zbrush. In zbrush you assign the image, which you used as decal, as a texture and paint on it. When you save your work (the image, which is used as decal/texture) you just have to go back to AM, update your Decal image, and what you painted onto the model in zbrush is in AM, without reimporting the model.

Just recently in this thread the issue of importing models from zbrush into am popped up, but this is (in my opinion) more a sidetrack ...

hope this helps

Heiner

[KenH]

Models made in Z2 do work in AM but you have to be careful with them and know how to go about it right. Also, decals don't have to be pre-assigned in AM. It's possible to bring in the undecaled model into Z2 and paint on it there....all the uv co-ords are automatically looked after and work in AM.

[KenH]

John: At the beginning of this thread, you suggest saving the model as an AVA and re-importing it. Is that the same as an .AV2 because that's all I can see.

I tested this format and it converts a 5 point patch to a 4 point and 3 point patches combined. If that's what you mean, is it not better to initially model with 3 point patches instead of 5 pointers?

Cheers.

[KingSalami]

KenH : I read in another post that AVA is the same is AV2...

 

You also said you couldn't change the geometery level (detail level) in ZBrush, but in fact you can, just go under the Tool pallete and under Geometry there is the Subdiv slider that lets you go up and down the subdivision levels and then you can export your model at any level of subdivision

 

Hope this helps

 

 

JackMcRip, you need to download the ZBrush practical manual, it takes you step by step through all you modeling/displacement questions, plus a lot more stuff.

 

ZBrush 2 Practical Manual

[JohnArtbox]

Ken, the conversion to AV2 is to get as clean an export as possible. I still build the models with 5 point patches because they are more effective models for use in AM. if I subdivided the 5pt patches manually I would have to redo the UVs

[KenH]

John: Yes I know why you used 5 point patches. I just don't get the workflow to use them with Zbrush. ....Because I export a model with the 5 point patches being converted to a 4 and 3 patch. Then I can paint on them in Zbrush and bring it back into AM. Then I convert the 4 and 3 patch back to a 5 point patch, but I can't figure out a way to get the image onto that patch. Is this the method you use? Thanks.

[JackMcRip]

By testing the compatibility from A:M and ZBrush there are some questions:

 

1. When I model in ZBrush with ZSpheres and after make adaptive Skin I want to make splines better, the I make holes and then 5PointPatches and maybe Hooks. Then the Texture isn't at this new Patches. How can I apply the decal new?

The Decal have not the correct position when I want make a simple new apply to the stamp :-(

 

2. What UV-Map should I use when I modeling in ZBrush and export as obj?

Or MUST I import the model in A:M and apply decals first?

 

3. Which UV-Methods will support by A:M ?

 

 

Displacement-Rendering-Test from ZBrush:

http://www.pixolator.com/zbc-bin/ultimateb...f=1&t=015456&p=

[JackMcRip]

without Displacement:

[JackMcRip]

The Splineview:

[zandoriastudios]

That looks awsome!

 

Could you use the patchselect tool to select the 5point patches, and then hide everything else and stamp them with the decal.

You could then open the UV editor and manually align each of those 5 pointers with the other coordinates.

[KenH]

The trouble is that model hasn't got a "parallel type" map on it. So, it's impossible to align the map to stamp it onto the model. I've tried models with spherical maps, but the maping origin is different between the two packages.

 

The closest I've come is to flatten the patches I'm going to alter before doing so. Then I take a screenshot of those patches rendered. Now alter the patches(if you do it while everything else is hidden, no other patches will lose their images).

Now you can use your previous screen shot to lay on top of the altered patches.

It's tricky to line it up though and changing the patches to 5 pointers can cause points to become unflattened.

[zandoriastudios]

Can you post a screen capture of the mapping from z-brush? If I can see what that looks like, I think that I can help you.

 

You don't have to lineup the decal with the patches, you just have to stamp it ANYWHERE on them. then you will go into the UV editor and manually realign those missing patches with the rest of the UV coordinates.

[KenH]

I don't have it handy....Bernd probably does. Just to let you know that Zbrush uses a mapping method called Adaptive tiles. Basically each poly/patch is represented by a square and they are all over the place. They have introduced a new method called "Group Adaptive Tiles" where the maps are divided into groups. This map is a little easier to read. Though, what you're saying could possibly work fine with the 3 basic mapping methods which it also supports.

[JackMcRip]

Thanks for Tips :-)

I try your ways.

Here is a Image of the Map.

I wonder about this, because is no tile-map !?!

What Map-Typ is it?

[KenH]

The tile map is the image that was with the model originally. You might be on to something with this method though. That's nice and neatly layed out. Was there alot of tweaking after you used "flatten"?

 

 

 

I just looked back at that model and it seems it was a spherical map. Here's an example of a tile map that was used for the sword above.

 

Bernd: Could you tell me how you unwrapped that mesh getting the back in there too. Thanks.

Edited June 10, 2004 by KenH

[JackMcRip]

This Mappingtyp is on the model.

When you import the head A:M ask at:"smiling_man_cage_l2.bmp"

With the Model came a tiff file.

Convert the image to bmp.

And load in A:M ...

Edit the Stamp and you get the image like I show.

 

The Model was made by Sami Sorjonen in ZBrush with ZSpheres.

In Silo he have change some polygons.

 

Have someone try to use a high polygone model to import in A:M?

[JackMcRip]

Is it possible to generate a map on a model without make a image and apply by hand?

Is it not possible to let generate an image, that include each patch on the image?

Might be it will generate by export/import ?

 

Then it is all easier :-)

[zandoriastudios]

I'm thinking that you might apply a material to a model and export maps during export as .obj. I seem to remember that A:M will create maps of the material. It would be like that tiled image that Ken showed.

 

If you could do that and paint to those coordinates in a 3d paint package and then import them back in, you could avoid the whole process of decaling...

 

It seems like a process for painting directly onto your models is an ideal situation. But I don't think I will spend the money for z brush just for that... must be an easier,cheaper solution.... <_>

[JackMcRip]

Thanks - I'm test it :-)

sounds hopefully...

 

I love ZBrush because the MODELING is so easy !

Not technical, more artist !

Fantastic workflow ...

 

AND ZBrush support a lot of details at a low poly model :-D

In modeling there is no different. You don't think about it while modeling.

 

And then you can Paint on it at the same easy way !

With a lot of tools and textures...

 

Now I must find a Way to import in A:M

I love A:M, too!

Same easy workflow while animation and have a lot of nice features!

 

ZBrush support to export only quadpolys.

Best prerequisite for import in A:M.

When I import the model in the Choreography as "Prop..." it looks exakt as in ZBrush.

But when I import it in an model, there are some ranges, because there are more than 4 Patches at one CP. And the mesh isn't smooth there.

 

I search the easiest way to model completely in ZBrush and import in A:M.

[JackMcRip]

I am very unhappy with the workflow and the result of import obj-files from ZBrush.

 

But I want to show you my first modeling tests after understand the interface of ZBrush and after many export/import Tests...

 

I need 3Hours to model the two objects complete in ZBrush.

Begin with ZSpheres...

[JackMcRip]

and here is the other Model:

[JackMcRip]

Please let me find a way to import the object perfectly

In Zbrush you have a low-Poly model that i can use perfect for weight-mover !!!

And then i can get a higher-Poly to import in A:M for better Details.

And then for the finest Details there i can export displacementmaps from ZBrush...

 

But I need import-feature without more than 4 Patches at one CP after import.

 

Here is another view of the last object.

So fast modeling in ZBrush...

Not finish - only test to relax after export/import tests.

[JackMcRip]

Here is the ZBrush Model of the turtle:

Link to Zbrush Model - click here

6,6 MB

 

I dont know how the easiest way.

Please help me if you can ;-)

[JackMcRip]

For Export A:M-Models it is very important to check and change the Hooks and 5Pointpatches. Sometimes when make the Hooks and 5pp's the normals direction not corect. (You should change/check the normals everytime direct after create these patches)

Some other Application like C4D R9 or Lightwave can create NGones (feature like Hooks or 5pp's). For this app's, it is better when the 5PointPatches are holes, when exporting.

 

Steffen Gross had written a fantastic Plugin to select the Hook and/or 5pp's.

You found it here:

http://www.sgross.com/plugins/

 

He is a great A:M-Developer :-)

[JohnArtbox]

Just a minor update to this thread.

Now that AM imports obj files as props, you can load your zbrush obj models directly into am for stills rendering or use as non-flexible objects. It doesn't help with painting but it is pretty cool.

Beneath is a quick test of obj prop import

Make sure you merge the UV coordinates when you export your obj files from Zbrush.

[JohnArtbox]

Model Rotate Mpg(450k)

Every once in a while I get an idea and come back to re-evaluate the whole process. The new beta has fixed the face count on obj exports.

To get rid of cracks on 5pt patches I open the file in note pad and copy and paste the colour decal. This gives me a model with two identical decals, which allows me to removeall 5point patches from one and use it for displacement. The other decal(which covers the 5pp's) is used for colour, spec and bump.

Just as an indication of the geometry, this is my avatar model decalled. All up I surfaced it in about an hour, but it's a pretty rough job.

As an old, physical modelmaker, friend once told me, the model's only there to hold the paint .

Now I need to look at normal maps from Zbrush, a preliminary test looked promising but had some render flaws .

[KenH]

I'm not sure I understand what you're adding there....."face count"? You still have to do the exporting to AVA first still right?

[JohnArtbox]

Yeah AVA is still the way to go. I was trying to go through a poly 3d ap to weld the vertices on the object file, but it proved an unreliable approach. It's a shame because a 16 poly per patch model provides a more accurate model to work on.

Now on to more normal map experiments

[JohnArtbox]

New Approach....export a 16 division obj file to zbrush. When subdividing further, select the crease button in the geometry subdivide menu and your models will be subdivided without creating visible holes in the mesh. The 16 subdivision model gives a great mesh to use as a base for normal, displacement bump and colour maps. It matches the AM geometry more accurately than the AVA option.

Also as a plus, using this method you can export a posed AM for use as a Zbrush tool.

 

I've tried this on two models with hooks and 5 point patches so far. The mesh is still not perfect, but it's much much better.

Also the new displacement exporter allows 8dot8 maps. You can use the major maps for displacement and the minor for bump or normal. Seems to work very well.

[KenH]

Nice work John! I'll have to get back into z now.

[JohnArtbox]

I've had this idea of a really fat fairy for a while and it seemed the perfect test for displacement.

The skin is just a default map and the displacement is fairly basic, but it's a good start.

Because the underlying mesh is really quite simple, it should be easy to rig.

[trajcedrv]

John, thanks for sharing your experience... It will really help to improve A:M to Zbrush and back workflow... (or in my case, A:M to Painter and back- and yes, one can paint displacement maps! it just hurts a lot ;oP)

 

One little thing! It would be really cool if you could post wireframe of the model, so that we could see 'the starting point'...

 

Also, did you have any experience with normal maps? I think that they could add new layer of expressivenes on top of the displacements...

 

Keep us posted!

 

Drvarceto

[JohnArtbox]

Hi Drvarceto:

I can feel your pain

I used to use Painter for displacements before Zbrush, it just involves a lot more work.

Here's an image of the model wireframe, then rendered with and without displacement.

Using Zbrush you can automatically output a bump or normal map to detail the displaced surface, and it adds a lot to the image.

[KenH]

You can really see the five point patches on her face in that third one. Dagnabit. Not as obvious in the previous image though.

[trajcedrv]

John, I've just took harder look at the wire and final render: to the best of my understanding, A:M subdivides each patch to 16 (so to say) subpatches when rendering displacements and that's it... however, I've got the feeling that level of detail is bit too high, especially in the region around the brests... Is the final render only done with displacement, or there is another LOD over it (bump or normal)?... anyway: cool, simple and elegant basic mesh and even better displacement... I think that she would fly like zeppelin (fairy ain't she? ;oD)

 

Thanks

 

Drvarceto

[JohnArtbox]

As far as I can tell AM splits each patch into an 8x8 grid of square surfaces and then smooths them using porcelain. This means that some areas, like the nipples, need more resolution. The render above is only done with displacement but there's a render with a matching bumpmap in the BitMapStyle thread here

here