Moonsire

I am off to pick up my daughter and her husband at the airport, and will be back before long. Phil...

...I exist at the primordial level... You are known to work at a level of excellence honed by your experiece. The results speak for themselves... It takes time, commitment and experience to achieve that level of expertise. This is important distinction and should be considered by new users of A:M. Do we set the standard at perfection? Is good enough ever... good enough? Again I think the answer lies somewhere in the middle. When adding titles or credits to a movie who immediately thinks of Compositing? I know I do... My goal with A:M is to be able to use it to tell my stories. This means that skill will develope while learning and performing with this tool, and as it does, I will have ever increasing ways of telling them, but if my skill is simple, then I will tell the story in a simple way. When my skill is greater, I will still use only what I need to tell the story. I will just have more choises to make. As to perfection or good enough; I don't worry about perfection, I don't think it exists. Good enough is a judgement that should be left to critics. The simple lines of Charlie Brown, or the complex detail of Toy Story, were for each, good enough for what they needed to do. Phil...

Another area that takes up render times are some procedural materials versus using decals. E.G. some of the dark tree materials take an obscene amount of time to render (20x) when they could easily be duplicated using a decal. I'm not sure if you're using any materials (the brick?, concrete?), but this is for future reference. And of course there's hair; using final render (no multipass - usually shorter) versus # of passes for multipass; size of frame; % frame that's transparent; density of particles, etc. Those are a partial list of other areas which impact render times (not in your current scene), but also might lead you at some point if you don't want to change the components of your scene to consider post-compositing to cut down render time. (Caution: I'm an impatient slobby hack compared to Yves sublime perfection) Alas and alack, Nancy, I too am often impatient. The building is the brick warehouse in the Model/buildings library in A:M. Almost everything is made up of magerials. Only a few little decals for dirt and grime. Maybe I need to pick my buildings better. But I don't have one with decals, and that means building my own. My own attempt at building brick walls has been less than spectacular, but I haven't given up yet. Phil...

Robert. I missed your question, and Yves had to point it out to me. Sorry about that. I actually have a three light system set up. I'll try turning off the shadows on the other two and just use the Kleig light for that. As to the reflection, no. I don't need it, though it's kinda cool. The other building I was thinking of using has no windows. I could make these dirty and solve the problem. Still, I want to see about rendering without the building, and combining them in post. A great time to dirty the windows too. I had forgotten about the raytraced shadows taking longer. Thanks for the reminder. Phil...

Hey Yves. One of the things I've been doing is reading David Rogers book "Animation:Master 2002 - A Complete Guide, and he makes comments about shadows/reflections and the render times involved. As to Robert Holmen's question, huh? I missed it, or didn't get the question. Would you point it out to me, please. I am always happy to have advice and guidance from others. I have a tendency to pick and choose what I follow, don't we all, and it is true that we all have our own styles, but input is always welcome. As an actor, I have two backgrounds. The first is as a stage actor, and that one has the advantage of a long term influance. When I started working on animations, I wanted to do them like a play. In Rodney's words, "...create one really big, gigantic, really huge Choreography..." and do it all at once. Like a play. But my most recent exposure is to T.V. and Movie work, and there, you film/tape a scene, close-ups, two shots, mid and wide shots, and put it all together in post. I think the T.V./Movie influance is going to win. I like the idea of setting up a scene and shooting it, and then going on. It also allows the chance to render just the scene, see where your going. Until recently, I didn't realize how much of the plans I've made (for animations) will likely include the need for post, and compositing. I want to pick up as much as I can, even the hacks. So much to learn. Anyway, Yves, please feel free to continue commenting and suggesting. I can't learn in a vacume, and I figure out pretty quickly what things will suit me best for my style, and that often is bits and peices of everythings. Thanks. Phil...

Thanks for that, and it probibly is not as much a thing as I make it sound. I have been all over the boards in the last week, lookin here and there, and just not finding exactly what I need. Nicely laid out tutorials tend to help me more than most other things out there. Back in the day, when programing in basic was popular, I was a module programer (on more complicated programs). That is to say, I would look at programs that had some aspect of what I wanted to do, and borrow the module or lines of code that did it. Then I would play with the numbers to see what they did, make them do what I wanted, and continue on in that vain where I needed to. I tend to do the same thing with A:M, in that I will take a model (or whatever) and play with the settings. I will follow as best I can the comments made in the forum and, if I can, I try to see if I stand a chance of figuring it out. Sometimes I learn, and sometimes I burn. If I have the correct idea, I understand that you can put a picture in the camera as a background, the same way you do with most other things, that is to click and drag. Haven't a clue what to do after that though. So true, and somewhere along the way that may end up happening, but I am also at a point where this is something I really think will serve me well not too far down the line. This project will likely only be one minute or so long when fully rendered, plus credits. The nine second segment I attempted to render in .avi (I know now, TGA is the only way) took 72 hours (before the crash). I have one system to work on, and it serves all my computing needs. 420 hours is a long time to render, and I suspect there will be places that Alpha Channel work would come in handy in cutting that time, and shadows and reflections aren't always an issue. One of the things that I have learned over the years is that I do much better at learning when I create a project for myself, and have someone to turn to for questions and answers, and right off the top here I would like to say thanks for all your inputs. I love that people just jump in with ideas and advice here in the forum, and I'm greatful for the number of tutorials that have been written, and look forward to learning to use this program enough to be able to write a few myself. But that's a cart and horse matter for now. Like most entertainers, I have a long list (and growing) of ideas I want to bring to animation. Storys to tell, you know. I'll need all the skills and understanding of the hows, that I can get. And now I'll sign off so you folk don't have to read this post all night. Thanks all, Phil...

Sounds like a plan. I look forward to doing this. Being as I don't know exactly what you're talking about, I await the learning experience. However, I have a 7:00 am call on the set of Old Christine at the WB in the morning, so a 5:00 am wake-up call. Off to bed now. Night all. I'll catch up on this tomarrow. Phil...

Sounds like a good idea. I'm willing enough. Timewise, I'll discribe my situation. I'm a background actor. My days (when I'm booked) range from an adverage 8 to 12 hours (with the occasional 4 to 6 hour day like today). I can put my main project on hold while we do this experiment, as there is no time table, and learning the ropes will advance this and future projects. But my response time could be anything from a few hours to a day or two, depending on my schedual. If that is O.K. with you, I'm all for it. What do you have in mind? Phil

I will look at this as one possible answer. See how many frames that would be etc... I have been toying with this one as well. I have even deleted most of the building to see if it would work. This does not deal with the shadow that hits the building though. Actually, there is no shadow in the TGA Alpha Channel, but there should be one on the wall if consistancy is to be served. Truthfully, I would be willing to pass up the shadows if I had to, but there is that part of me that feels a shadow is the only right way to go. I have also considered using a different building, thus solving the window problem. Haven't rejected that notion. Might be the easier way out. I tend to experiment. The worst that could happen is, I have to rebuild the scene in the project, and this is a simple scene, all things considered. I know that I can take each TGA Alpha Channel and place it on the one image of the building (this done in Gimp) thus getting the image that I was trying for and then following the directions for gathering them into A:M and exporting them as .mov or .avi. Alas, I don't know the easier way to do this in A:M. There is an easier way right? I have heard reference to this many times, but as yet haven't done it. At this point I don't know the machanics to the process. I presume that this allows for actions to play out as well. If there is a tut on the forum explaining it, I'll find it and give it a try. Some times I need to be reminded of the shortcuts. Thanks, Phil...

Rodney. I just realized another aspect of the scene that I didn't take into account. The windows. They reflect the image of the van and the character. E-Gads, this is getting deeper and deeper. I rendered the building and sidewalk seperately, and then rendered the character, van and fire plug into TGA images with proper numbering. That cut the render time down quite a bit. Of course, now I must go on to the next step. Naturally, I have also returned to work, so time becomes more of a factor. There will be less of it. Well, O.K., there will be the same amount of time as before, just allocated in a less A:M friendly manner. I also have a question off topic. I have done (over the last year) several of the exercizes in the book. Three of them, (Can-can, Walking, Secret) are in a single movie and others I will have to find. Is it O.K. to post these on the Newbie lists to go towards my eventual graduation? And how does the not remembering of dates effect all this? Alright. Enough for now. I must play some more with A:M. Thanks, Phil...

I am webmaster on six web sites, three of my own, my daughters and her husbands and a friends. One of the things I find a little challanging is that when I haven't had to update or deal with any of the sites for a long time, I have to relearn many of the skills I have forgotten. Always a lot of fun. My main interests in the Alpha Channel are: Cutting down on the time it takes to render by rendering the backgound once. Making sure the fire hydrant is where it needs to be, and there I suspect I must render it with the van and character. And getting the shadows to show correctly. I am most concerned about the above issues because I will be able to reuse this in the other scenes in this short, and of course, in future efforts as well. I am not at all adverse, however, to any little gems that may turn up in the tutorial. My method of learning includes a lot of self directed efforts that often result in picking a subject and then learning the skills I need to complete it. My web writing skills came about the same way. It often means I get ahead of my skill level, but when I'm done, I'm no longer at the former skill level. When my nieces came to visit, I didn't even think about the possible difficulties, I just decided to make an animated movie using their voices. I had four days, and got it done and on DVD. No great work of art, but the kids loved it. Even when you hit a brick wall (and in this short, I am trying to make a brick wall that looks good) you learn something. Sometimes, it's just that you find out what else you need to learn. Heh. Phil...

Well now, there you go. I have some reading to do. I'll get right on these links and start learning. And I look forward to the quick down and dirty "just do it" tut as well. I read as much as I could make sense of on other forum posts and understood that shadows were something to keep in mind. There is so much to learn and always plenty more where that came from. I work as an actor (currently background actor) in L.A., and had solidly declaired that I never wanted to be a director, editor, producer, writer or other "production" side entity. I am an actor. Heh. On A:M, of course, I am all of the above. There is a lot I've learned there that I can see using on A:M. And always, there are people who help. Thanks for all the help Rodney. Phil...

I desperately wish someone had let me know this when I started with A:M. I think I've lost weeks from not knowing this. These days, I use After Effects. I can't see doing sounds any other way. It's a bit of a pain, but the results are better. I have been using A:M for a little while now, and have produced a few short films (mostly exercises) that have only had short render times, and this is the first time my system crashed. Not however, the first time I was concerned about it. I will be looking into After Effects because I see so many people, including A:M users make effective use of the program, but so far, I am really pleased with A:M. I have decided that I would like to know more about using the Alpha Channel to make the render time faster. While I understand that rendering can, and will, take more time, the more sophisticated my animation becomes, I would still like to cut the production/post-production time down where possible. Any help there will be highly appreciated. Phil...

Rodney, Thanks for the quick reply. I will look for JohnL3D's tut, and check out the other links you suggested. I will make sure to use the TGA process, as it sounds like a sure fire way not to have to do it all over again, and again, and again... I'll let you know if I have any questions after reading the tut/links, and again, THANKS Phil...

Hey folks. I have a bit of a delima. I am making a short subject film, and the render times are a little out there for the small choreographies that I'm doing. I just spent 72 hours with my computer tied up rendering an eight second choreography. Unfortunately, it was a 75 hour render, and when it crashed at 72 hours, the avi was unuseable. It is clear to me that the most memory expensive bit in the choreography is the warehouse-brick-front and the street/sidewalk. Attached is a copy of the image. The building, street/sidewalk, and fire hydrant are the only non-moving items. The horn character and the van (on the right) both move. The character moves behind the hydrant and the van in the forground. I have looked at the forum enough to know that my best bet is the alpha channel, but I haven't a clue how to do it. I suppose the building and street/sidewalk would be rendered only once, but how do I set the thing up so that that happens. Also, I'm guessing that the character, hydrant (because the character goes behind it and the van in front), and the van all get done on another render in TGA. Again, I don't follow the settings, and once I have 298 frames in TGA format, what am I supposed to do with them? And, there are shadows, as you can see, on both the side walk and the building. I would really love to get a crystal clear explination of how to do all this if someone out there has the time. I will be happy to answer any questions if it means I don't have to wait another 72 hours for my system to crash before it can finish the render. Just a small point of information here, I don't think it was A:M's fault the system crashed, but until I get my other tower tied into my computer so I can run renders on it while using my computer, I just can't tie it up with a 75 hour - 8 second render. This short subject uses this and another building, the street/sidewalk and other items that could be done with the Alpha Channel method, and save me a lot of time on the render end of things. Thanks Phil Moon

I just tryed the shadow switch on ground and sure enough, it works. Thanks for the suggestion. I'll also try ArgleBargle's suggestion, to see if that works as well. Always better to understand how all this works. Big thanks to both of you.

I've been a bit confused by this myself. I'm not sure what the rule is, but under some circumstances, it seems that surfaces of zero thickness don't cast shadows. I built an office chair that was a single sheet thickness, but had an edge that was an extruded tube. The edge cast a shadow, the surface between did not. I could go for an explanation myself. There you go. I took another look at my own picture, and sure enough, the rim of the horn can be seen as a shadow, which makes sense by you explination, because I rapped the edge around on itself to make it thicker. Perhaps I'll try to create a second layer of the large part of the bell, and see if that works. Thanks for the idea ArgleBargle.

I have something of a dilemma with a shadow. As you can see in the image accompning this question, the shadow of the horn charactor is incomplete. The bell is open, and thus the shadow does not show it. What can I do to get the shadow to cast fully as it is supposed to?