Moonsire
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Posts posted by Moonsire
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When does the DVD com out?
Its out! Hash Inc is mailing it with new updates.
Those that have missed it should visit a Hash Inc booth at a tradeshow near you and get yours.
I'm hoping mine will arrive on monday.
I'm still operating on V12 and will be for a while, as funds don't allow an upgrade now. The tradeshows are out for the same reasons, though I might be able to scrape up shiping and handling. Will a phone call to Hash inc. generate such an arangement?
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Animation Pitstop has been shut down for well over two years now.
I believe its operator's bad health was the reason it could no longer be maintained.
You'll be glad to know that many (but not all) of the resources once found on the site are now included on the Extra DVD. A few resources I just couldn't track down... the dinosaurs in particular if I recall correctly. I haven't given up though!
When does the DVD com out?
Lucky for you that you are going to sleep.
Here's a post for the technocenti. I admit I haven't read it (just skimmed).
I'm told there are actually people out there that understand this stuff!
In other words... I don't expect many to be interested at this level but its here for completeness sake.
Just a 147 pages of light reading? The math is likely beyond me, but I like the pictures. <g> I'll look it over, over time, as I can't print this one out.
To keep this in the real of utility here is a use of Alpha Channels for decals.
Yves mentioned he using them for that process and in the following tutorial Frank Silas does too. He demonstrates an alternative to rendering hair.
I have seen this one before. I'll print it out and read it along with the Darrin Mossor tut on Layers. I have seen the Mossor tut before too, but didn't make connections.
Phil...
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The trouble I have absorbing this is in finding that moment when we call our effort 'done'. In my experience, this moment almost never occurs (perhaps its when we die?). As such I find I always get to a point where I must finally say, "good enough".
Now if you could teach George Lucas to embrace this thought...
I have looked at things I have done, and my thought is "Ah, I could have..." or "Ah Hah, I should have..." and I know that those projects are done. Next time, I take what I have learned and make the next project with that extra bit of awareness. Still there will come a moment when I am likely to say, "Ah, I could have...", but that is they way of things.I find the trouble with deciding when "good enough" is actually good enough comes when I'm working on my own porojects. For some of my own projects, it seems to be lifetime indeed.For commissioned projects, it is way much easier as it is generally related to time and money budget or to ownership...And the bar is raised or lowered by the level of your personal investment. Just a reality. I work background, and get paid minimum wage. The star of the show gets paid gobs more (which is the way things are) and we both have a different level of investment, thus bars are placed differently. After the 10th take, I can see how "good enough" is reached. The star, however, may want to go for take 11, or may take it futher. When I am in his spot, the bar will be higher.
One good in-between situation is to participate in community type of challenges and voluntary-based projects where there is still submission deadlines but there are no customers to boss around. I'm thinking of the image contests and TWO (or any similarly structured projects). Clear deadline, better ownership and as a bonus, feedback as opportunities for improvement.When your giving your time and effort willingly, and without monitary compensation, and the love of the art, or even the stroke of the ego is involved, improvement is alway ready to be had by the one who keeps his or her eyes open. You just want to do your "best". Good enough becomes a higher bar, by choise. That's a good thing.
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Hey Rodney.
I've read the above and have printed out the tutorial to read in the morning. Bed time now. But I have one question I haven't asked anyone yet.
What is with http://www.AnimationPitstop.com. People keep saying what great stuff they have, and all I have ever seen there are paid ads and pop ups. Is there a deep dark secret not shared with outsiders that I know nothing of, or is there really content on the site that isn't just ads?
Now I can walk the dog (she'll like that) and go to bed.
Phil...
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I am off to pick up my daughter and her husband at the airport, and will be back before long.
Phil...
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...I exist at the primordial level...
You are known to work at a level of excellence honed by your experiece. The results speak for themselves...
It takes time, commitment and experience to achieve that level of expertise.
This is important distinction and should be considered by new users of A:M.
Do we set the standard at perfection? Is good enough ever... good enough?
Again I think the answer lies somewhere in the middle.
When adding titles or credits to a movie who immediately thinks of Compositing?
I know I do...
My goal with A:M is to be able to use it to tell my stories. This means that skill will develope while learning and performing with this tool, and as it does, I will have ever increasing ways of telling them, but if my skill is simple, then I will tell the story in a simple way. When my skill is greater, I will still use only what I need to tell the story. I will just have more choises to make.
As to perfection or good enough; I don't worry about perfection, I don't think it exists. Good enough is a judgement that should be left to critics.
The simple lines of Charlie Brown, or the complex detail of Toy Story, were for each, good enough for what they needed to do.
Phil...
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Hmmm... You must understand that what takes render times are shadows and reflections.
Another area that takes up render times are some procedural materials versus using decals. E.G. some of the dark tree materials take an obscene amount of time to render (20x) when they could easily be duplicated using a decal. I'm not sure if you're using any materials (the brick?, concrete?), but this is for future reference.
And of course there's hair; using final render (no multipass - usually shorter) versus # of passes for multipass; size of frame; % frame that's transparent; density of particles, etc.
Those are a partial list of other areas which impact render times (not in your current scene), but also might lead you at some point if you don't want to change the components of your scene to consider post-compositing to cut down render time.
(Caution: I'm an impatient slobby hack compared to Yves sublime perfection)
Alas and alack, Nancy, I too am often impatient.
The building is the brick warehouse in the Model/buildings library in A:M. Almost everything is made up of magerials. Only a few little decals for dirt and grime. Maybe I need to pick my buildings better. But I don't have one with decals, and that means building my own. My own attempt at building brick walls has been less than spectacular, but I haven't given up yet.
Phil...
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Here is Exercise's 14 and 16.
Done:1-4-2007 and 5-14-06 in that order
No Inst.
I am, however having trouble with the Flying South exercise (19) because the Flocking function is creating invisible birds. They don't show up.
This is weard because only last week, I did the exercise (didn't save it because I wanted to do it a little differently) and it worked fine.
I'll try flocking again before I bother you anymore Rodney.
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Here's Exercise #8
Redone: Jan. 4, 2007
No Instructor
Just for your information Rodney, I am up loading 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 7, 8, 14, and 16 today.
Phil...
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Phillip Moon
Exercise #7 (Also #'s 2, 4, 5,)
March 12, 2005
No Instructor
I put exercises 2 4 5 and 7 all into one Movie. It's 15 megs and not too long. In .mov format.
http://phillipmoon.com/media/phils first_c_02.mov
(Sorry for the multi-posting. )
I haven't done #6 over (did it some time ago but it is lost on a computer somewhere) but that will come.
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Phillip Moon
Exercise #5 (Also #'s 2, 4, 7)
March 12, 2005
No Instructor
I put exercises 2 4 5 and 7 all into one Movie. It's 15 megs and not too long. In .mov format.
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Phillip Moon
Exercise #4 (Also #'s 2, 5, 7)
March 12, 2005
No Instructor
I put exercises 2 4 5 and 7 all into one Movie. It's 15 megs and not too long. In .mov format.
http://phillipmoon.com/media/phils first_c_02.mov
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Exercise 3: Move it
Completed: Jan 31, 2005
No Inst.
Toon Rendered
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Second post of the day.
Phillip Moon
Exercise #2 (Also #'s 4, 5, 7)
March 12, 2005
No Instructor
I put exercises 2 4 5 and 7 all into one Movie. It's 15 megs and not too long. In .mov format.
http://phillipmoon.com/media/phils first_c_02.mov
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Hi all.
Today will be a posting day for me. I have 9 of 19 exercises done and ready to upload. Some of them were done in 2005, some later and a few in the last day or two.
So here's the first:
Phillip Moon
Exercise #1
January 4, 2007 (First time in 2005)
No Inst.
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render times...
Are your lights all raytraced?
Raytraced lights (sun type, lightbulb type) take longer than Kleig lights set to "shadow-map"
You seem to have several shadow casting lights. Multiple lights take more time too.
A daytime outdoor scene will only have one... the sun. You can make other "fill" lights non-shadow casting.
Do you really need the reflection in the window? Make them dirty windows and it won't matter.
Robert.
I missed your question, and Yves had to point it out to me. Sorry about that.
I actually have a three light system set up. I'll try turning off the shadows on the other two and just use the Kleig light for that. As to the reflection, no. I don't need it, though it's kinda cool. The other building I was thinking of using has no windows. I could make these dirty and solve the problem. Still, I want to see about rendering without the building, and combining them in post. A great time to dirty the windows too.
I had forgotten about the raytraced shadows taking longer. Thanks for the reminder.
Phil...
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Hmmm... You must understand that what takes render times are shadows and reflections. I seriously doubt that in scenes that don't have shadows and reflections, you will have those same render time issues. So you would most probably end up putting a lot more work into them and gaining no significative overall turnover time.
The corollary of the above render time rule is that to cut down on render time, your best first bet is to visit your shadows settings. Robert Holmen asked you a question about that and you did not reply. I think you are underestimating that aspect and you should seriously consider this first, before any other approaches. I'm shure Rodney can guide you on this just as well as on alpha channels.
I know you are a new user and I'm just trying to set you on the right track.
Hey Yves.
One of the things I've been doing is reading David Rogers book "Animation:Master 2002 - A Complete Guide, and he makes comments about shadows/reflections and the render times involved. As to Robert Holmen's question, huh? I missed it, or didn't get the question. Would you point it out to me, please.
I am always happy to have advice and guidance from others. I have a tendency to pick and choose what I follow, don't we all, and it is true that we all have our own styles, but input is always welcome.
There are extremes in all cases.Some A:M Users want to create one really big, gigantic, really huge Choreography that contains everything they need to complete the next feature film/movie.
Some break everything down into the most minute pieces they can to get absolute control at every level of production.
Somewhere in the middle then is the power of Alpha Channels.
As an actor, I have two backgrounds. The first is as a stage actor, and that one has the advantage of a long term influance. When I started working on animations, I wanted to do them like a play. In Rodney's words, "...create one really big, gigantic, really huge Choreography..." and do it all at once. Like a play.
But my most recent exposure is to T.V. and Movie work, and there, you film/tape a scene, close-ups, two shots, mid and wide shots, and put it all together in post. I think the T.V./Movie influance is going to win. I like the idea of setting up a scene and shooting it, and then going on. It also allows the chance to render just the scene, see where your going.
The key usage, I'll guess, is in compositing.For those who have no interest in compositing images the Alpha Channel will be of little use.
Its all about manipulating imagery in Post Production.
Until recently, I didn't realize how much of the plans I've made (for animations) will likely include the need for post, and compositing. I want to pick up as much as I can, even the hacks. So much to learn.
Anyway, Yves, please feel free to continue commenting and suggesting. I can't learn in a vacume, and I figure out pretty quickly what things will suit me best for my style, and that often is bits and peices of everythings.
Thanks.
Phil...
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"Being as I don't know exactly what you're talking about, I await the learning experience. "
I was afraid of that. : )
I'm preparing for classes starting next week and such,
but I'll try to put together a short tutorial in the next week or so.
Thanks for that, and it probibly is not as much a thing as I make it sound. I have been all over the boards in the last week, lookin here and there, and just not finding exactly what I need. Nicely laid out tutorials tend to help me more than most other things out there. Back in the day, when programing in basic was popular, I was a module programer (on more complicated programs). That is to say, I would look at programs that had some aspect of what I wanted to do, and borrow the module or lines of code that did it. Then I would play with the numbers to see what they did, make them do what I wanted, and continue on in that vain where I needed to. I tend to do the same thing with A:M, in that I will take a model (or whatever) and play with the settings. I will follow as best I can the comments made in the forum and, if I can, I try to see if I stand a chance of figuring it out. Sometimes I learn, and sometimes I burn.
If I have the correct idea, I understand that you can put a picture in the camera as a background, the same way you do with most other things, that is to click and drag. Haven't a clue what to do after that though.
Why don't you just render the animation straight to TGA?You've been discussing different approaches to splitting the renders ... I'm all for learning new techniques and approaches but those seem overkill for this project.
You started this topic jan 1st. If you had rendered, let's say 8 hours a night, your 75 hour render would be more than half completed now. If you had rendered 15 hours a day (assuming you render during night and during you are away for your day job), your animation would be done by now.
So true, and somewhere along the way that may end up happening, but I am also at a point where this is something I really think will serve me well not too far down the line. This project will likely only be one minute or so long when fully rendered, plus credits. The nine second segment I attempted to render in .avi (I know now, TGA is the only way) took 72 hours (before the crash). I have one system to work on, and it serves all my computing needs. 420 hours is a long time to render, and I suspect there will be places that Alpha Channel work would come in handy in cutting that time, and shadows and reflections aren't always an issue.
Yves,Up a few posts you'll see we discussed that aspect. That is definitely the easiest, most direct way.
Phil wants to explore Alpha Channels (see topic title) so... here we are.
Rendering to TGA alone wouldn't be sufficient to explore the power of Alpha Channels.
Do you have any projects laying around that clearly demonstrate the benefits of Alpha Channels?
The sooner we get it covered the sooner we move on to other subjects of interest.
Thanks in advance.
One of the things that I have learned over the years is that I do much better at learning when I create a project for myself, and have someone to turn to for questions and answers, and right off the top here I would like to say thanks for all your inputs. I love that people just jump in with ideas and advice here in the forum, and I'm greatful for the number of tutorials that have been written, and look forward to learning to use this program enough to be able to write a few myself. But that's a cart and horse matter for now.
Like most entertainers, I have a long list (and growing) of ideas I want to bring to animation. Storys to tell, you know. I'll need all the skills and understanding of the hows, that I can get. And now I'll sign off so you folk don't have to read this post all night.
Thanks all,
Phil...
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A basic project with minimal assets assigned.
As we get deeper into the exploration we'd add more to it.
I broke my Alpha Channel project so will recreate it and post it here.
I should email Steve Sappington to see if he still has his Layers project.
That'd be a good one to experiment with.
Sounds like a plan. I look forward to doing this.
I hesitate to bring this up at this late hour, but it's an easy way to speed up render times with a camera that doesn't move. Just render the static scene, and then apply it as a camera map to every object that doesn't move. Have the objects receive the mapping and shadows but not take part in any of the other rendering. Then, you just animate your moving objects among the static camera mapped ones.Of course, I may have not read your post thoroughly enough, and may be way off track on what you want to achieve.
Being as I don't know exactly what you're talking about, I await the learning experience.
However, I have a 7:00 am call on the set of Old Christine at the WB in the morning, so a 5:00 am wake-up call. Off to bed now.
Night all. I'll catch up on this tomarrow.
Phil...
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Sorry, my keyboard failed on me there. Rough times in the world of computer for me these days.
I'm back now though. As I often say...with computers... 99% of the time its a connection.
If you are willing (and able timewise) I'd like to suggest we conduct an experiment.
It might go something like this:
We set up a scene and share it.
Then only one of us renders objects while the other only renders (composited) images.
Eventually we'd update and share this scene as we move on to more complex considerations.
If this sounds like something you'd care to try then you are welcome to pick your preference.
If we share a common file it'll help us to attack and explore the same things.
I've got a super easy setup that we could start with.
Although it may not be complex enough its easy to make it more complex once we start adding in images with alpha channels.
Sounds like a good idea. I'm willing enough. Timewise, I'll discribe my situation.
I'm a background actor. My days (when I'm booked) range from an adverage 8 to 12 hours (with the occasional 4 to 6 hour day like today). I can put my main project on hold while we do this experiment, as there is no time table, and learning the ropes will advance this and future projects. But my response time could be anything from a few hours to a day or two, depending on my schedual. If that is O.K. with you, I'm all for it.
What do you have in mind?
Phil
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I will look at this as one possible answer. See how many frames that would be etc...Here's an idea to consider...If there are only a few frames where the reflections are in the window you need only render *those frames* with everything turned on. Render each time to a different folder (one for separated elements and one for complete scene) with the frame filename targetted and then replace only those frames you need. Its a bit more logistically complicated but might work in some instances.
You could also render the window and car together and composite that in with the scene but you'd probably have to 'disappear' the window from the scene first.I have been toying with this one as well. I have even deleted most of the building to see if it would work. This does not deal with the shadow that hits the building though. Actually, there is no shadow in the TGA Alpha Channel, but there should be one on the wall if consistancy is to be served. Truthfully, I would be willing to pass up the shadows if I had to, but there is that part of me that feels a shadow is the only right way to go.
I have also considered using a different building, thus solving the window problem. Haven't rejected that notion. Might be the easier way out.
I tend to experiment. The worst that could happen is, I have to rebuild the scene in the project, and this is a simple scene, all things considered.It sounds like you have a pretty good grasp on TGAs and Alpha Channels if you are already rendering out separate elements.I know that I can take each TGA Alpha Channel and place it on the one image of the building (this done in Gimp) thus getting the image that I was trying for and then following the directions for gathering them into A:M and exporting them as .mov or .avi. Alas, I don't know the easier way to do this in A:M. There is an easier way right?
Hopefully the models you are testing this out with are fairly simple... proxy models... standins... the mo simple.... the mo better.Once you find something that works you can then set up your scene with the desired resources.
I have heard reference to this many times, but as yet haven't done it. At this point I don't know the machanics to the process. I presume that this allows for actions to play out as well. If there is a tut on the forum explaining it, I'll find it and give it a try. Some times I need to be reminded of the shortcuts. Thanks,
Phil...
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Your experience will definitely serve you well in your endeavors with A:M.
Phil...
Rodney.
I just realized another aspect of the scene that I didn't take into account. The windows. They reflect the image of the van and the character. E-Gads, this is getting deeper and deeper. I rendered the building and sidewalk seperately, and then rendered the character, van and fire plug into TGA images with proper numbering. That cut the render time down quite a bit. Of course, now I must go on to the next step. Naturally, I have also returned to work, so time becomes more of a factor. There will be less of it.
Well, O.K., there will be the same amount of time as before, just allocated in a less A:M friendly manner. 
I also have a question off topic.
I have done (over the last year) several of the exercizes in the book. Three of them, (Can-can, Walking, Secret) are in a single movie and others I will have to find. Is it O.K. to post these on the Newbie lists to go towards my eventual graduation? And how does the not remembering of dates effect all this?
Alright. Enough for now. I must play some more with A:M.
Thanks,
Phil...
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Thank you Dhar,
I think you are right, I should use one camera when assigned one shot, sticking more to the script. I used a camera pan that was already in the project this time.
This one is simpler and shorter.
I am not very experimented at it, but playing with the camera is fun.
Michel
Michel,
I am not on the project, and so, don't know if I should be sticking my nose in here, but I have a suggestion on how the shot might be improved further.
If you can start with a shot of them walking (more from in front of them with background hills and sky) and then have the camera dolly around behind them so that you can now see them walking toward the house, where they stop.
Go to close up of Tin Woodman (the one in the first render), and end with the wider shot at the end of the first render.
This is a combined point of view. My wife (who has the directors eye) and me (the actor).
Phil...
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Your experience will definitely serve you well in your endeavors with A:M.
One of the things I'm striving hard to do (and failing) is remembering all the things I've learned. These are certainly perishable skills.
I've got the basics of the 'down and dirty' tutorial put together but now need to make sure it makes sense and hits the areas of relevant interest.
Anything in particular that interests you regarding Alpha Channel? (I'll re-read your posts)
Since I'm just kind of wandering into the tutorial its hitting about everything that springs to mind. There are a lot of interconnected disciplines, gotchas and inspirational moments in the art of animation. Its fun too but we've got to focus on the goal; in this case, Alpha Channels.
I am webmaster on six web sites, three of my own, my daughters and her husbands and a friends. One of the things I find a little challanging is that when I haven't had to update or deal with any of the sites for a long time, I have to relearn many of the skills I have forgotten. Always a lot of fun.
My main interests in the Alpha Channel are:
Cutting down on the time it takes to render by rendering the backgound once.
Making sure the fire hydrant is where it needs to be, and there I suspect I must render it with the van and character.
And getting the shadows to show correctly.
I am most concerned about the above issues because I will be able to reuse this in the other scenes in this short, and of course, in future efforts as well. I am not at all adverse, however, to any little gems that may turn up in the tutorial. My method of learning includes a lot of self directed efforts that often result in picking a subject and then learning the skills I need to complete it. My web writing skills came about the same way. It often means I get ahead of my skill level, but when I'm done, I'm no longer at the former skill level.
When my nieces came to visit, I didn't even think about the possible difficulties, I just decided to make an animated movie using their voices. I had four days, and got it done and on DVD. No great work of art, but the kids loved it. Even when you hit a brick wall (and in this short, I am trying to make a brick wall that looks good) you learn something. Sometimes, it's just that you find out what else you need to learn. Heh.
Phil...
Using the Alpha Channel
in New Users
Posted
My oh My! I have had an epiphany! Back On Topic.
While going through the Mossor tutorial, I got this really clear image of what I sould be doing.
1. Run render of background only (with fire plug for shadow).
2. Run render of Van, Character and fire plug (car in front, character behind).
3. (If I want the shadow of the Character to show (not worrying about the car)) then I can put a white plane where the street is and one where the wall is and render. In Gimp, remove the character, Invert the image, move on to the next frame and repeat. There are not that many frames with the shadow. So not too bad a job.
4. Import the background image.
5. Import the group render from 2.
6. Import the group render from 3.
7. And this step (for what I want) is different than what the tutorial calls for, because somehow, I should be able to export the bunch as a .avi or .mov.
So, assuming 1 through 6 are right, what is step seven?
Phil...