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Evening All from windswept, dark and wet West Cork (Ireland), Maybe it is the weather, but the computer beckoned today and I hauled myself into learning AM again. Nothing difficult but I am again banging the sore head against a harder wall than before. Been trying to cut a hole in a model and had varying levels of success - so much so I decided to get back to basics and see if I could fathom what I was doing wrong. Did a very simple outline, used an 8-sector lathe and formed a simple 3-d model. Cut a hole in either side and then started filling in 5 point patches. To me (uninitiated) both holes were created exactly the same way. The First Hole: All 5 point patches worked fine but when trying to fill in the last patch - it was a real pain. Selection1, 2 and 3 show the points being selected but the 5-point patch icon is not selectable. It appeared to be dependant on only selecting points when they were clearly visible and not near the outline graphic of the selection as in 'Selection4'. Selection5 shows the final patch created. So, in this instance, I didn't change the CPs in any way, but it seems that AM is very sensitive to where / how the CPs are selected? The Second Hole: The first 3 went OK (had a bit of bother with patch 2) but I am now on patch 4 and cannot get the 5-patch icon to become live. This is shown in Selection5 - each of the points that have been selected are clearly visible but still no 5-point selection tool. Before posting I decided to have one last attempt. I made a group called '5 points 1' of the group that wouldn't work, I then selected an area around where I wanted to work and hid the rest. Tried selecting the 5CPs again and this time the icon showed - so I named this group '5 points 2'. These are in the attachments '5pt Selection Group1' and 5pt Selection Group2'. Both groups look identical - why does one work and the other not? Selecting the group '5 points 1' group shows that the 5-pt-patch icon is not enabled. Selecting the group '5 points 2' group looks identical and now the 5-pt-patch icon is enabled. Have I missed the plot somewhere and making life unnecessarily difficult for myself - or is it just the cold snap and rain affecting my brain and if I go to be will everything be right in the world when I wake up? Sorry for being so long-winded Oliver