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mouseman

Breaking modeling rules

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There are two things I'm considering doing with the model I'm working on in my Hit-and-Run work-in-progress, but I don't know if they will give me problems when it comes time to rig the character.

 

First is trying to do something other than the standard T pose. I find the T pose makes it a lot harder to position bones correctly for the shoulders, and slightly harder for the elbows. The normal approach is a cylinder for the body, and then cylinders coming out for the arms using 5-point patches to match up the cylinders. I was instead thinking of having a T with only the shoulders, and then the arms descending from the shoulders; sort of like a cylinder for the body, a cylinder for the arm, and then a "connector" cylinder for the shoulder to attach the two. I'm attaching a simplified model mock up with a single shoulder joint to show what I was thinking of. Would it be possible to position the geometry bones in this position and still have it work? Also, what if I modeled it with the arms bent at the elbow facing forward?

 

The second thing is the hand. With the T pose, everyone seems to model the square on the exact same axis as the arm, or perhaps bent down a little bit. That seems to give all hands a square, boxy, kind of feeling to how they are attached to the arm and how the fingers fold. But in reality, the hand tilts at maybe 30 degrees or so towards the side of the pinky. See the image. Think of people shaking hands, how their hands naturally bend down slightly to meet each other. If I modeled my model's hands like that, would installing rigs (either AM2008, Squetch, or LiteRig) give problems? I believe I tried something like that on the AM 2001 rig, and had problems with the fingers not bending/clasping straight.

Hand.JPG

 

I'm not very good at installing rigs, so I was hoping to save some grief and avoid a ton of remodeling. Thanks in advance for any guidance.

 

ETA: Here's a screen capture of the alternative shoulder model:

alternative_shoulder.png

Alternative_Shoulder_Test.mdl

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The shoulders should be no problem whether in a "T", modified "T" or down at the sides of the torso for the Squetch Rig...I'm pretty sure that is also true of the LiteRig and 2008 Rig. The hand position would also not be a problem.

 

I need to tweak the Squetch Rig installation to allow for bent elbows...the elbow fan bones are affected at the moment. I'll fix it in the next release.

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Thanks, Steve! It's reassuring to know I won't be going down a wrong path without realizing it.

 

I imagine the only trick will be getting the roll handles facing the correct direction when placing the bones.

 

If I'm really industrious, I'll try installing all three rigs to see which one I like best. But I probably will be too antsy, and will go with the first one I get working! (Kids these days!)

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Another quick question for anyone with an opinion ... which workflow is better?

 

1. Model, rig, texture; or

2. Model, texture, rig

 

I'm almost thinking #1, because you might have to do some modelling changes here and there while rigging if you find something that doesn't quite go with the rig.

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Another quick question for anyone with an opinion ... which workflow is better?

 

1. Model, rig, texture; or

2. Model, texture, rig

 

I'm almost thinking #1, because you might have to do some modelling changes here and there while rigging if you find something that doesn't quite go with the rig.

 

Always model, rig then texture. I tend to go by David though...or itsjustme.

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I just posted an update to the Squetch Rig in this post.

 

-----------------------------

EDIT

-----------------------------

 

The installation rig is now updated to correct a problem with the elbow and knee fan bones when the arms and legs are modeled bent.

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Some wise person said "rig before you texture because you're gong to end up remodeling when you rig."

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Wow....now this short thread was informative indeed. And have to remember --Model - rig - remodel --texture .

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Wow....now this short thread was informative indeed. And have to remember --Model - rig - remodel --texture .

 

This is worth foot stomping quite a bit because folks spend a lot of time texturing (and lighting) models only to find out they have to retexture and relight later. This is not only expensive in terms of budgeted time but can be extremely frustrating.

 

To take what you've just said, and go you one further, I'll suggest the flow can be: Model>Rig>Remodel/Perfect>Light>Texture.

Lighting and Texturing can occur earlier in the process but it might be useful to consider those early unfinished models as Proxy Models when doing so. It is the key changes to the Proxy Model (as compared to what ends up in the Final Model) that should be managed because of their effect on production later down the line.

 

It's not unheard of to see entire models change as a film nears completion and if a lot of time has been spent lighting and texturing a scene the inclusion of the new model may force starting the process of texturing and lighting all over again. Of course general lighting and texturing can always be applied but they need not be meticulously detailed.

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I recall going to visit one of our Forum members, Mike Sanderson when he was working at DNA on "Ant Bully" and he showed me a lot of work in various stages of production. He was doing camera Layout and all the models were in un textured gray at that point. From there it went to the animators who did all their work in un textured gray. Only near the end of the pipeline did these scenes get their textures and lighting.

 

I have to presume that someone somewhere was working on textures before the end of the line but some economy was obtained by not finalizing it until later.

 

They were using SoftImage for their production. I asked Mike, "Does it ever crash?"

 

"Oh yeah. All the time!" he said.

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Always model, rig then texture. I tend to go by David though...or itsjustme.

Very sorry about the confusion. I've been in other circles with Simmons-es named Steve and Scott, and now David. Don't know where my head was; I'm sure part of it is just the brain getting older. But be assured I am no less thankful for your input!

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As I'm modeling my "Colfax" character for Nightcallers, I've decided to revamp my procedure and texture last. I always get caught up in refining the texturing because it looks so dang nice, but then I get bogged down when it's time to rig. Also, adding displacement or other maps early on just slows screen redraw way down and makes the rigging process sluggish.

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