Ideas for the Next Community Project

[mouseman]

After playing with the set and watching clips from the movie, here are a few changes I'd like to see:

 

1. There are a lot of normals flipped. When turning off back-facing polygons to improve modeling time, things look weird.

 

2. It would be nice to hide various parts of the set so animating will be faster for people with slower machines. However, with the buildings as one big set, it's difficult to do.

 

3. With one big project, saving is very slow. While having one big file is nicer for distribution, having the models separated out would be better for animating, when periodic saves are needed.

 

4. Given that we're adding the use of windows on the left side apartment, I do think it would be good to move the default camera position to be more to the right and closer. I believe that is the location in the original movie, with a nearly straight in view into the left window with the fire escape. If we go ahead with changing the camera position, that will need to be done sooner rather than later, because we've found that the effective placement of set elements inside of rooms depends highly on the placement of the camera.

 

I've created a copy of the set that addresses problems #1 (normals are now all outward facing), #2 (separated each building into its own model), and #3 (moved models into separate files), and #4 (created a copy of the original camera, but put it in a new location). I've put all of these into an SVN repository, which I could make available to everyone working on the project if these changes are the ones we want to go with.

 

Paul, I'll send you info on the SVN repository. Let us know what the decision is.

[fae_alba]

Tell you what... How about if i make a first draft of "the rules" and if we can use them or or agree on something like them I'll handle figuring out the transitions?

 

go for it Rob

[fae_alba]

I'm looking over mouseman's project right now. But I have a few thoughts on the overall concern of the size of the set. In my mind, unless your short requires a view of the whole set, you don't need it. The most you should need is enough of the exterior building for the opening and closing frames that I will use to set the fade ins and outs. I would imaging that unless you want to use the apartment models done for the set, you can get started on your chors without it. What I intend to do with my piece is to simply copy the model for the scene I want to another one, then work from that. Hopefully Robcat will be kind enough to come up with a list of camera settings for everyone to use (since I'm not totally up to speed on that just yet) that everyone can adhere to.

 

The long and the short of it is I see no reason why everyone can't start working on their projects. Mousemans (Chris Daley) has been kind enough to set up a svn project with credentials for our "public" consumption. But I've noticed that there are some action files missing from the repository, and since he is on vacation until the 29th, I'll hold off just a little bit longer in releasing the info to get to the project. If anyone hasn't used svn, or doesn't want to install it on their machines I'll set up an ftp account so you can grab an archive of the project.

 

Get to work. Block out your scene, work on the acting, then when the set is released you can put it together with the opening and closing frames.

[robcat2075]

The long and the short of it is I see no reason why everyone can't start working on their projects.

 

I hope that isn't the formal launch announcement. That will need a fresh new thread to get everyone's attention with the rules and guidelines and downloads front and center at the very top so no one can reasonably miss them.

 

Don't launch this yet.

[fae_alba]

The long and the short of it is I see no reason why everyone can't start working on their projects.

 

I hope that isn't the formal launch announcement. That will need a fresh new thread to get everyone's attention with the rules and guidelines and downloads front and center at the very top so no one can reasonably miss them.

 

Don't launch this yet.

no, simply just trying to let folks know that things are moving forward, albeit a tad slow.

[robcat2075]

Could we consider changing the distributable set of stuff so that the models are not embedded in the PRJ?

 

As it is now, when you save a chor all the models get saved as part of the CHOR which makes chors larger than they need to be as you save successive versions of your animation and for the purposes of returning a chor that has the lighting and camera information keyframed in it.

 

 

Also, when I open the set there's no "grass" beyond the sidewalks. Wasn't there some dirt or grass in some version?

 

 

 

 

 

Here's a preliminary version of the "rules"

 

1 download the zip containing the set and unzip it to a convenient place on your hard drive

 

2 Leave the camera where it is. You can rotate it to look left or right or higher or lower, you can zoom it ("focal length") to see something closer, but the camera needs to stay where it is. It does not travel.

 

3 Animate almost anything you want for your segment. Something taking place on this set that could be plausibly seen from the observer's location at the camera. You can use a stock character or your own.

 

3a Although 2012 is an election year, lets leave politics out of it. Save it for Youtube!

 

3b The character in the establishing segment that shows someone is watching this set of apartments will be Thom so don't use Thom as your character.

 

3c the characters, props, whatever... that you add to the set for your segment need to be not visible to the camera on at least the very first and last frame of your segment

 

4 Your action doesn't HAVE to be inside one of the rooms in the buildings. There are lots of possibilities for things to happen on this set in places that are not in a room.

 

5 You can use sound. If you do it should be something that could plausibly be heard from the observer's location.

 

6 Your Project should be set to 24 fps. Check it and make sure before you start.

 

7 Start your segment a 2:00 (that's 2 seconds). We'll need the first two seconds for a transition we'll ask you to render later.

 

8 you can show wips on the forum, don't show your finished segment.

 

9 when you are finished, render your animation with the provided render preset.

 

10 Save a chor that has (details go here) keyframed at (details go here). We'll need this to figure out the transitions between segments.

 

11 Submit the rendered movie and the chor to _______________

 

12 After you submit your animation and chor, remember we're going to come back later and ask you to render a bit more for the transition in and out of your segment. We can't know what that transition will be until everyone's segment has been submitted.

 

13 you have 90 days from the launch date to animate and submit your segment. Reserve some time for rendering!

 

14 Have fun and have fun using A:M!

[robcat2075]

Any feedback on these rules? Are they missing something?

[Bruce Del Porte]

Why no camera moves? Telephoto focal lengths flattens everything. Hitchcock shot window scenes with a crane. Wouldn't it be a "best practice" to shoot with an optimal camera position and focal length. We can use the window position to make our establishing long shot and return on a cut after our sequence to sell the illusion of voyeurism.

 

 

[robcat2075]

Hitchcock was an expert director who knew exactly how to cheat the camera position without tipping off the viewer that that the shot he was getting wasn't really strictly possible from Jimmy Stewart's vantage point.

 

Use the camera position and available set to their advantages, not to their disadvantages, and there are more than enough possibilities for staging almost any action anyone will want to do.

[robcat2075]

I'll note that there were lots of reasons to wish to move the camera in BUS STOP, for close ups or different compositions or rhythm or whatever... but that wasn't the concept.

 

The concept was a static observer and everyone was able to come up with an idea that fit in that concept instead of an idea that failed because of it.

[Bruce Del Porte]

It isn't a "wish", it is good movie making.

 

I think I'll pass on this one, good luck.

[fae_alba]

Any feedback on these rules? Are they missing something?

 

Sorry Robert, meant to respond but got sidetracked. They (the rules) sound spot on to me.

[robcat2075]

It's not possible to make these projects all things to all people. Strong boundaries make for stronger projects.

 

It isn't a "wish", it is good movie making.

 

I think I'll pass on this one, good luck.

 

I'm sorry that's a deal killer for you. Hope you'll change your mind. There are lots of other places to stage interesting things besides in a window.

 

I'll also note that those were "my" rules.. part of my offer to figure out how to engineer the transitions between what will still be very non-matching segments.

 

If you want to commit to that task instead, Bruce...?

 

But if I'm going to do it I want to frame it so that there's a real good chance it's do-able.

[mouseman]

I finally made it there and back, albeit a day late due to aircraft maintenance delays. That happened both going out and coming back; bad luck. I missed a day of work and a little bit of vacation time, but least I am safe and sound back home.

 

The long and the short of it is I see no reason why everyone can't start working on their projects. Mousemans (Chris Daley) has been kind enough to set up a svn project with credentials for our "public" consumption. But I've noticed that there are some action files missing from the repository, and since he is on vacation until the 29th, I'll hold off just a little bit longer in releasing the info to get to the project. If anyone hasn't used svn, or doesn't want to install it on their machines I'll set up an ftp account so you can grab an archive of the project.

 

Minor correction on the last name: Dailey.

 

I only saw one missing action, and I've now added it. Let me know what it complains about if you find anything else.

 

Could we consider changing the distributable set of stuff so that the models are not embedded in the PRJ?

The version in SVN should already have this change. It does not yet have anything for hiding the front of the buildings, which Paul had mentioned would probably help animators. (Robcat2075, I sent you a login with write permission in email, feel free to jump in.)

 

For the instructions / rules ... Here are my comments/suggestions/questions in {bold within braces}, additions in just bold, deletions in strikeout. To save space, I just copied the ones with changes and the ones without changes that still need blanks filled in.

 

1 download the zip containing the set and unzip it to a convenient place on your hard drive Check out the project from Subversion using a client such as the subversion command line client, or a graphical tool such as Tortoise SVN for Windows. Subversion URL: {to be filled in} Username: {to be filled in} Password: {to be filled in}

 

2 Leave the camera where it is. You can rotate it to look left or right or higher or lower, you can zoom it ("focal length") to see something closer, but the camera needs to stay where it is. It does not travel. {Could people with windows on the left side translate the camera inward a bit?}

 

3a Although 2012 is an election year, lets leave politics out of it. Save it for Youtube! Also, please make your entries PG and child friendly.

 

3c the characters, props, whatever... that you add to the set for your segment need to be not visible to the camera on at least the very first and last frame of your segment {I don't get why this is necessary, and how it would work. Also, does that include the 2 seconds, or just the first frame of the 2 seconds, or the first frame after the 2 seconds?}

 

6 Your Project should be set to 24 fps. The default project should already be set up with the proper frame rate, but check it and make sure before you start.

 

7 Start your segment a 2:00 (that's 2 seconds). We'll need the first two seconds for a transition we'll ask you to render later. {Will we also need 2 seconds available at the end? I think that's indicated in #12, so this is point is probably redundant.}

 

9 when you are finished, render your animation with the provided render preset. {Note: We (organizers) will need to provide a PRE file.}

 

10 Save a chor that has (details go here) keyframed at (details go here). We'll need this to figure out the transitions between segments.

 

11 Submit the rendered movie and the chor to _______________

[robcat2075]

2 Leave the camera where it is. You can rotate it to look left or right or higher or lower, you can zoom it ("focal length") to see something closer, but the camera needs to stay where it is. It does not travel. {Could people with windows on the left side translate the camera inward a bit?}

 

I'd rather have the camera in one spot. Is there a better spot to put it so the most windows are most visible? I figure that no matter where you put it some thing will be not ideal. But maybe there's a better spot?

[Rodney]

I don't know how the SVN requirement will effect those wishing to participate but perhaps adding a note to suggest an alternative for those who cannot go the route of SVN is to collaborate with someone who will be connected to SVN who can upload the files for them?

 

There are a few really good reasons why strictly requiring SVN might be ideal:

1. A goal of this project is to increase the use of SVN.

2. A goal of this project is to increase knowledge of collaborative tools like SVN.

 

The benefits of using SVN from the production side of this are self-evident but the rules are targeted the participants who may not understand this. To them it will be an obstacle... something they'll likely have to setup.

 

Use of SVN is not likely to increase participation in the project but will increase the knowledge and productivity of those who participate.

Perhaps the following statement could be added: "If you wish to participate but for any reason cannot use SVN, identify yourself."

 

Yes, I'm overthinking this but I'm hoping this project will aid others in realizing the benefits to be gained through use of tools like SVN.

[Paul Forwood]

Here is a very, very rough example of how transitions could work:

 

Example_00.mov

 

Please excuse all models, Actions and the set. The set is the old version before I handed it over to mtpeak2 to work his magic on. The actions are just test actions that I had and they are only used here to give some suggestion of movement and most of the models are proxys.

 

I have designated 25 areas in the set as target areas for user actions to take place and then created 25 choreographies, each with it's own camera path. The paths all start from the same location and follow the same trajectory for the first second. It is crude but it will work and animators could choose to set the end ease point themselves, which would allow for a variety of framing options. I was imagining tha opening sequence would parody the opening sequence in Hitchcock's film so there would be blinds that roll up followed by the titles before the butterfly entered the window and revealed the voyeur.

 

When this project was first proposed I had a much simpler, toony method in mind though where windows would simply light up yellow, the camera would fly through the window at such a pace that everything would be a blur and from there the contributers' animations would be shown. The contributers could design their own rooms wjich could be any size, shape and colour and would not be confined by the laws of nature. A tiny window could lead to an enormous ballroom if necessary. Maybe that is another project though.

[largento]

That is awesome-sauce, Paul!

[robcat2075]

Here is a very, very rough example of how transitions could work:

 

Example_00.mov

 

That is indeed my expectation of how it would work except for the camera physically flying over to the windows.

 

Ideally every shot could edit right to the next one, but that's unlikely so the character can be brought back to establish some major change.

[Vertexspline]

So, following along this thread - I guess some things are still being tossed around like the camera -views and transitions to be used. Additionally I guess one could also ask what is the goal of all these window scenes if any. Are there any thematic directions to work within? Are all the windows scenes just going to be strung together with some kind of beginning and some kind of end?

 

And my own point of view as to the camera ---I think it makes most sense to have it coming from a room where the character like Jimmy Stewart would be sitting but my take is that each window should have its own camera shot kind of like Paul has exampled. The movie itself takes some liberties with that and it seems to be it would be good for this project as well. Even from one window depending how close one gets to the window and how good your binoculars or super zoom lens ---one could get a pretty darn good look into each window like a stage.

 

The SVN thing is new for me and maybe some others reading along so maybe someone can explain what and how that works vis a vis this community project.

[Paul Forwood]

That is awesome-sauce, Paul!

 

Thanks, Mark!

 

 

That is indeed my expectation of how it would work except for the camera physically flying over to the windows.

 

Agreed.

[fae_alba]

I haven't looked at Paul's sample yet (at work right now so not a good idea to be watching movies whilst pretending to being productive)..but..I had envisioned something like, scene starts with "Jimmy Stewart" looking thru his window, something catches his eye and he focuses on that, the camera looks in the target window, perhaps does a small pan/zoom to bring the window to the viewers attention, then some sort of cut to the contributors (yours) short. then at the end a transition either back to Jimmy, or to the next scene.

 

The purpose of the 2 secs before and after is to give me a chance to work the transitions between each short, to make it a cohesive story. Each chor, would have it's own camera to facilitate the animation, but each animation needs to use the same settings.

[mouseman]

For anyone worried about SVN, we can provide a ZIP file of the set for download, as well.

[fae_alba]

For anyone worried about SVN, we can provide a ZIP file of the set for download, as well.

 

yeah I like the idea of promoting/educating svn, but it is a bugger to learn. So if that were a goal we would need a good write up on it's uses, how it might be applied to A:M. An alternative ftp site would definitely be needed, so thanks for the offer!

[robcat2075]

Are there any nominees for a better prime camera spot than the one in the set now?

 

My feeling about some of the windows not being ideal is... use a window that is! Windows could be reused, no?

[robcat2075]

On SVN... I'm thinking we should not use it at all. It's bit too complicated for an "anyone can play" project like this and even though it could be explained you'd likely spend a lot of time doing it and it might be the initial barrier that stops some people from trying at all.

 

Posting the ZIP on the forum makes it very accessible and email and DropBox are good enough for returning work.

[mouseman]

Are there any nominees for a better prime camera spot than the one in the set now?

 

My feeling about some of the windows not being ideal is... use a window that is! Windows could be reused, no?

 

This is a little closer to where the camera was in the original movie, I believe. I might have it a tad too low, though.

 

This is from the same spot, but looking left.

 

The only disadvantage is the Penthouse which has less visibility into it from this location, but we could probably let Nancy cheat with the camera position for that one which I think they also did in the movie; do a cut from the Jimmy Stewart character to a slightly better located camera instead of zooming in.

[robcat2075]

Penthouse = that glass thing?

 

If visibility into that is an issue we could just take out every other vertical slat and that would improve the optics as well as swinging the camera across from it.

[fae_alba]

While it may not be totally true to the movie, why can't we set up the voyeurs window/apartment to have a wall of windows, like the penthouse? That way the camera can be moved to simulate the observer walking from one end to the other to view those hard to reach corners?

[robcat2075]

I am baffled by the idea that the set and fixed camera location are limiting. I've got more ideas for things to do on this set that will be perfectly visible from a fixed camera location than I'll ever have time animate.

 

What is it that someone is proposing to do that requires flying that camera around the set?

 

 

The BUS STOP scenario was extremely limited, you couldn't even zoom or pan the camera and people still came up with lots of good ideas.

[Vertexspline]

I think I have to agree with Robert on this concept.....I bet if if someone who has the set file dropped a rabbit , thom whoever in every window ..people might visualize how much field of view each window actually does have---and I bet it might make more people see the possibilities with this camera position. (Assuming one can zoom in as Jimmy S did with camera or binculars).

[fae_alba]

All right, so I'm going to call this discussion a wrap. The camera remains fixed where it is, it's time to start animating.

[robcat2075]

Question for someone who really knows the set....

 

What do we have to key to capture the state of every light and whatever else is affecting the appearance of the set? Is it ALL run by pose sliders?

[robcat2075]

Question for someone who really knows the set....

 

What do we have to key to capture the state of every light and whatever else is affecting the appearance of the set? Is it ALL run by pose sliders?

 

I'm guessing either Paul Forewood or Mark Skodacek would be the answer people on this...

[Paul Forwood]

Mark did all of the lighting in the finished set.

[mtpeak2]

Yes, all poses.

[robcat2075]

Where do i get the most recent incarnation of the set with all the objects external to the chor?

 

If it's on an SVN someone email me the access info again.

 

thanks

[mouseman]

Where do i get the most recent incarnation of the set with all the objects external to the chor?

 

If it's on an SVN someone email me the access info again.

 

thanks

I've resent the information to you in email. Please let me know if there are any problems (e.g. if I sent it to the wrong address, etc.). Email mouse at intranet dot org.

[robcat2075]

Is there a post somewhere that explains how the window blinds and shades and drapes operate?

 

I see some constraints in their construction that suggest there's something already there that one could use to open and close a blind as needed, but i haven't gotten anything to move appropriately.

[mtpeak2]

Hmm, I know I had this all working, but for some reason none of the translation limits are working. The curtains and blinds have null controls and the shades just have a bone that translates up and down. I'll have to see if I can track down the problem.

[mtpeak2]

This is very odd!!! The constraints work just fine in the assembly action, but not in the chor.

[mtpeak2]

Even stranger!!! I can delete the assembly action and reapply it and the constraints work, but when I save the project and reopen, it no longer works. I don't understand this one at all!!

[mtpeak2]

I just don't get it. I can delete the keys on the controllers and reanimate them and the constraints work, but as soon as I save it and reopen it, all of the constraints are broken. The chor action is breaking the constraint setup somehow.

[robcat2075]

I just don't get it. I can delete the keys on the controllers and reanimate them and the constraints work, but as soon as I save it and reopen it, all of the constraints are broken. The chor action is breaking the constraint setup somehow.

 

I'm glad you're on top of it, Mark!

 

Does the thing break if you do it all in v15? (I'd try it but I'm not exactly sure what I should be trying)

 

I'm also troubled by the Day_Night pose slider not appearing in the pose window. Do you get that?

[mtpeak2]

Same thing happens in v15.

 

No problem seeing the day/night pose. The model for the exterior lights is set to non pickable, could that be causing your problem?

[mtpeak2]

The problem also exists in v13.

 

I'm guessing it has something to do with them being action objects. I really don't want to create a model with all the window treatments and have to setup all those constraints.

[robcat2075]

The problem also exists in v13.

 

I'm guessing it has something to do with them being action objects. I really don't want to create a model with all the window treatments and have to setup all those constraints.

 

How about it you made one blind model, constrained it, then put copies of the model in the chor directly rather than via an action?

 

 

or... crazy idea... if you exported that building from the chor as an mdl... would that somehow consolidate things, by getting rid of the Action?

[mtpeak2]

How about it you made one blind model, constrained it, then put copies of the model in the chor directly rather than via an action?

This would probably work, but you would end up with alot of models in the chor.

 

or... crazy idea... if you exported that building from the chor as an mdl... would that somehow consolidate things, by getting rid of the Action?

All the bones would get renamed and the constraint setup would not duplicate the pose to reflect that. I would have to save multiple model (after renaming the bones and poses).

[robcat2075]

How about it you made one blind model, constrained it, then put copies of the model in the chor directly rather than via an action?

This would probably work, but you would end up with alot of models in the chor.

 

That's what folders are for.

[mtpeak2]

I know about folders. But to go through all the effort to reassemble it in the chor and have it still not work (because of all the duplicate models) would be very frustrating.

 

The strange thing is, the other constraints work fine, it's just the limit constraints that get broken. Maybe just adding the limit constraints in the chor may fix the problem.