NancyGormezano Posted November 11, 2009 Share Posted November 11, 2009 Hi Holmes - almost successful - still tweaking to do - (ah yes, face weighting - what a joy) A couple of questions/observations: 1) Making the tongue be a tongue - should the tongue geometry bones be parented to the jaw geometry? It wasn't in the geometry bones that I got. Altho, it is parented in the controls. Even when I did parent tongue geom bones to jaw geom - it still didn't behave properly...not sure what's not working. Are the tongue base cps's assigned to head? jaw? Do you have a model that you feel works the way it should with this new face version, that I can look at? 2) No face controls show up when slider is at 1%, only the master controls show at 2%. Are the separate L,R controls suppose to show at 1%? I took a look at the Face Controls relationship - and it looks like there are keys for the L, R controls - 0=On, 48=Off - should there be keys 24=ON as well? 3) The face weighting doc - was terrific - until we get to the lips - Holey Moley. It might be helpful to include a screen shot that shows WHAT the resultant weighting goals for the lips are (ie shot with written weights superimposed on top). The description focuses on HOW to get there, which is what is the confusing part. I realize you were trying to present the easiest, safest way to do it....but eventually I just had to wing it, because of my eyeballs starting to spin & shoot blood. The weights are not yet correct for the lips for what I have - but once I got the controls going - then it became more obvious what I might need to fix I am sooooo glad my model has bare minimum amount of splines - Face rig works wonderfully with it. I found that with the eyelids on this character, that if I only assigned cps to the lid middle bone (for both top, bottom) - and also weighted cps properly, that the eyelids close, open better than if I used the inner lid bones as well. Thanks again for the rig AND documentation! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HomeSlice Posted November 11, 2009 Share Posted November 11, 2009 should the tongue geometry bones be parented to the jaw geometry? The tongue geometry bones - "%) Tongue 1", "%) Tongue 2", and "%) Tongue 3" - should be children of "Tongue Base". "Tongue Base" is a direct child of "Face Bones". The only thing Tongue Base does is Aim At the Tongue Control null, which is a child of Jaw Master. The Tongue Stretch Master and Tongue Curl Master drive percentage poses. You can find the poses in Face > Face Rigging. No face controls show up when slider is at 1%, only the master controls show at 2%. This is strange. I tried it with just the rig (no mesh attached) and at 1%, the Master Nulls appeared and at 2%, the split control nulls appeared. Do you see the nulls correctly when you view the model from Front View instead of looking through the camera? Any L/R controls should be Hidden=ON at 0, Hidden=ON at 24 and Hidden=OFF at 48. L/R controls are enabled when th slider is at 2% (split controls). Do you have a model that you feel works the way it should with this new face version, that I can look at? Oh ... sure ... you're going to make me work. <_> OK, I'll try to rig up a face mesh and post it before too long. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NancyGormezano Posted November 11, 2009 Author Share Posted November 11, 2009 (edited) This is strange. I tried it with just the rig (no mesh attached) and at 1%, the Master Nulls appeared and at 2%, the split control nulls appeared. Do you see the nulls correctly when you view the model from Front View instead of looking through the camera? Any L/R controls should be Hidden=ON at 0, Hidden=ON at 24 and Hidden=OFF at 48. L/R controls are enabled when th slider is at 2% (split controls). Note that this is not the case - master controls are viewable at 2%, L/R are never viewable. It is the same situation for front or camera view. As for the tongue - My model has the geom bones (tongue base/tong1,2,3) children of face bones, as you say, and as it was in the bones model. I was wondering if it should really be child of jaw bone instead? as the tongue doesn't go down when jaw goes down..I will look at it again I don't want you to do extra work - I just thought you had tried it. Maybe I have a different version than you? EDIT: I looked at the tongue again - I think it is working correctly...but not sure...I have it as you say to have it. I may have not assigned cps correctly Edited November 11, 2009 by NancyGormezano Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NancyGormezano Posted November 11, 2009 Author Share Posted November 11, 2009 okey dokey - I changed to "Any L/R controls should be Hidden=ON at 0, Hidden=ON at 24 and Hidden=OFF at 48. L/R controls are enabled when th slider is at 2% (split controls)." 1)This makes L/R controls come on at 1, stay on at 2, and master controls also come on at 2 - which I can obviously fix to be whatever they should be: So the question now is: Is it supposed to be at 1: just L/R controls, and at 2: Just Master controls? 2) New problem - now that I can see the L/R controls - unfortunately I see that they are inside the head -apparently I didn't move the controls stuff far enough in front of my model's face. What would be the best procedure to re-position them? And of course not start from zero Can I (since I've done additional weighting after the export, once I could see how the controls were supposed to work) : 1) delete all face controls and their relationships from my model 2) drag controls and those associated relationships from original bones model (after fixing the face control relationship). 3) reposition controls again - re-export Should work? Or is there an easier way? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HomeSlice Posted November 11, 2009 Share Posted November 11, 2009 I was wondering if it should really be child of jaw bone instead? as the tongue doesn't go down when jaw goes down.. That would be easy to check out. Just make the Tongue Base (and children) a child of the Jaw bone and see if that works for you. It will still Aim At the Tongue Control null, but that null is a child of the Jaw Master so it shouldn't hurt anything. So the question now is: Is it supposed to be at 1: just L/R controls, and at 2: Just Master controls? I designed it to work so all the Master nulls are visible at 1% and all the L/R (split) control nulls are visible at 2%. But Ultimately they can be however you want them. If you switch them, it shouldn't break the rig. apparently I didn't move the controls stuff far enough in front of my model's face. What would be the best procedure to re-position them? Probably the easiest way is to : ( EDIT: SEE THE NEXT POST FOR THE EASIEST METHOD ) Save a copy of your model first In the Model window, switch to side view. Place markers at every "control" null. Control nulls have "control" in their names. In the PWS, select the Face Controls null and bring up the Translate Manipulator. Drag the Translate Manipulator farther out in front of the face. Drag each control null that moved back to its marker. You can also change the positions of the *start* of the geometry bones to better match the curvature of the face. But if you change the position of the *ends* of a bone, you either have to re-export the model (with constraints OFF and Place Control Nulls ON) or manually reposition the control null(s) associated with the bone until it is placed exactly at the tip of the bone. The only thing that happens when you export the Action is that the control nulls (the little ones, not the big Master nulls) get positioned at the tips of the appropriate geometry bones. The only two cardinal rules that I can think of at the moment are: Each small "control" null (a control null has "control" in its name) should be positioned exactly at the tip of a geometry bone. Do not move a Master null (a master null has "master" in its name) from one side of the face to the other. This seems to break the MultiD Relationships required for automatic mirroring of facial expressions. If you want to change the way the eyelids open/close or the way the tongue stretches/curls, you can edit the poses for them in Face > Face Rigging. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HomeSlice Posted November 11, 2009 Share Posted November 11, 2009 OK, I just tried a quick experiment and it seemed to work. Save a copy of your model. Open your model in a new Action. In the Action: turn Face > Face Rigging > Face Constraints OFF. turn Face > Face Rigging > Position Control Nulls ON. Move the big Face Controls null farther out in front of the face. Export the Action as a model ( I didn't have to force keyframes or anything). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NancyGormezano Posted November 11, 2009 Author Share Posted November 11, 2009 In the PWS, select the Face Controls null and bring up the Translate Manipulator. Drag the Translate Manipulator farther out in front of the face. Drag each control null that moved back to its marker. Hmmm...I had originally tried that - translating the face controls more out front - but it didn't seem to work, face got wonky. Not sure what you mean by "its marker"? So - Are you saying I would have to translate the l/r control nulls back to the tip of the appropriate geometry bone after translating the entire face controls forward ? As stated here: Each small "control" null (a control null has "control" in its name) should be positioned exactly at the tip of a geometry bone. and You don't have to re-export again, ever ... unless you change the position of the *ends* of the geometry bones. Um...I might have changed some geometry bones You can even change the positions of the *start* of the geometry bones to better match the curvature of the face. The only thing that happens when you export the Action is that the control nulls (the little ones, not the big Master nulls) get positioned at the tips of the appropriate geometry bones. I'm guessing I should re-export after re-positioning controls (will be trying it - but it's good to understand the interactions of the whole rig) I had tried out the tongue geom as a child of jaw geom - Can't decide which way works best - I think your way is better - but still not quite right - will deal with it after. Eyelids work fine the way I have them (1 middle bone for top, 1 middle bone for bottom) Thanks mucho for your help. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NancyGormezano Posted November 11, 2009 Author Share Posted November 11, 2009 OK, I just tried a quick experiment and it seemed to work. Save a copy of your model. Open your model in a new Action. In the Action: turn Face > Face Rigging > Face Constraints OFF. turn Face > Face Rigging > Position Control Nulls ON. Move the big Face Controls null farther out in front of the face. Export the Action as a model ( I didn't have to force keyframes or anything). OK - Just saw this - I will try this - Thanks again (have to go out for a short bit first) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NancyGormezano Posted November 12, 2009 Author Share Posted November 12, 2009 YES! that worked - easy-peasy - now on to finish tweaking (later) - Thanks again Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HomeSlice Posted November 12, 2009 Share Posted November 12, 2009 I've been looking into the issue with the Master nulls not showing up when you change the Face Controls slider to 1%. It seems to be some kind of culling issue in A:M. If you look at your model from the Front view, then rotate slightly using the "T" key, do the Master nulls show up? I don't know how to fix that. They seem to appear and disappear at random times. I'm not even sure if I can put together a simple example of this phenomenon for A:M Reports. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HomeSlice Posted November 12, 2009 Share Posted November 12, 2009 If you are having trouble with your lower lip distorting when your jaw is open: Face Rigging Relationships > Face Constraint Relationships > Lips Left Lower: Turn "Scale To Reach" OFF in the "Aim At" constraint. Face Rigging Relationships > Face Constraint Relationships > Lips Right Lower: Turn "Scale To Reach" OFF in the "Aim At" constraint. This is good advice for life in general ... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HomeSlice Posted November 12, 2009 Share Posted November 12, 2009 I've been looking into the issue with the Master nulls not showing up when you change the Face Controls slider to 1%. It seems to be some kind of culling issue in A:M. If you look at your model from the Front view, then rotate slightly using the "T" key, do the Master nulls show up? Try making the Camera and the Face Cam Rotate Master Visible at 1% in "Face Controls ( 1-Mirrored / 2-Split )". Make sure they are hidden at 0%. Also try hitting the [space] bar. I'll post a revised LiteFace rig after I've check it out a little more. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HomeSlice Posted November 12, 2009 Share Posted November 12, 2009 For the tongue, try moving the *Start* of the Tongue Base bone up and back a little bit. That should help it move more in alignment with the jaw. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NancyGormezano Posted November 12, 2009 Author Share Posted November 12, 2009 I've been looking into the issue with the Master nulls not showing up when you change the Face Controls slider to 1%. It seems to be some kind of culling issue in A:M. If you look at your model from the Front view, then rotate slightly using the "T" key, do the Master nulls show up? I don't know how to fix that. They seem to appear and disappear at random times. I'm not even sure if I can put together a simple example of this phenomenon for A:M Reports. I am not experiencing an intermittent problem (yet) with nulls showing or not showing up after I fixed the face control relationship (15e). Before I fixed it - it appearred that from the settings that A:M was doing what it was told to do: (see images posted above) The L/R's were set to OFF at 48, and there was no key for ON at 24, The masters were set to ON at 48 only. I have made it such that at 1% all the l/r controls AND master controls are visible and at 2% ONLY Master controls are visible. That seems logical to me - I would want access to ALL controls or just Master controls. I will watch for any intermittent funky problems. I'm now wondering if my problem before, when I thought I needed to reposition the face controls, after fixing the relationship, was that I just couldn't see the teensy weensy teeny tiny itsy bitsy L/R nulls on the face mesh. - I guess you are expecting animators to die before they are blind ?... However it was good to do anyway - I learned more about how this works. And I think my problem with the tongue was that I was manipulating the Jaw Control - rather than the Jaw Master - the tongue controls are a child of the master, not the jaw control (child of the jaw master). I'm still futzing with it - but first I want to fix my lip weights EDIT: Just saw all your posts...I will digest them...man, I am a sloooowwwwww typer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HomeSlice Posted November 12, 2009 Share Posted November 12, 2009 OK Nancy, I uploaded an example face to the first post on the "LiteFace" thread. The file is named "Example_Face_2009_11_11.zip" http://www.hash.com/forums/index.php?s=&am...st&p=292566 I didn't do any smartskinning, so the eyelids sometimes intersect the eyeballs. I also uploaded a small update to the rig, but you should not need it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NancyGormezano Posted November 12, 2009 Author Share Posted November 12, 2009 okey dokey - Only thing left is to fix tongue - I'm still not satisfied - but it works good enough for now. Changed the bones, modeling, - I think I just need to reposition it. Will think on it more. Still have to do the mbp,e, etc poses, and some more body tweaking - but I'm happy - no...MORE than happy with face rig - I really like the controls, geom bones - seems to work well with a very low spline model (as well as denser mesh models). here's what the lip weighting looks like for the sample model you provided: If you'd like to use it for your face weighting document, let me know and I'll clean it up (to use better bone names) or you can have the photoshop file. I think it would help make the lip weighting description be clearer, as to a sample goal. What I REALLY REALLY like is the naming convention you have selected - using % for face bones is terrific - makes it very easy to find bones. And it's also easy to find bones in general as there are not a zillion billion to scroll thru. Just FYI - I found for my model - which has less lip splines, and is more cartooney - that these weights worked better for me: As for the camera - I have it on in both 1 & 2 % - so there aren't any keys for it in the relationship - so I don't have a problem with it. I haven't encountered any intermittent problems with other settings either yet. Thanks again. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HomeSlice Posted November 12, 2009 Share Posted November 12, 2009 Wow Nancy, you have been studying the example model. Dang girl, for someone who tries to make everyone think you have a feeble mind, you are quite erudite! The reason I didn't include specific CP weight info in the Face Weighting tutorial is that they vary *wildly* from mesh to mesh. Even when I re-weight the same mesh, they seem to change. CP weighting is about as inexact as you can get, from my experience. So I thought it would be more helpful to focus more on the process, and on the *how*, than on trying to come up with weights that would work for all (or even a few) face meshes. However, since you are so graciously offering the Photoshop file for the lip weights in the example model, I will add it to the tutorial if you send me the file. Either post it here or email it to me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NancyGormezano Posted November 12, 2009 Author Share Posted November 12, 2009 (edited) I realize why you did what you did in the tutorial for lip weighting, but that section made my eyes go glossy, in contrast to everything else being highly readable. You can always add just what you said above: " it's not exactly the same for each model - but these are the weighting goals for this model's lips" or something like that. Then present the how. I still am not sure why you were going thru so many steps. I found that since it was so easy to find the bones, I could just select each vertical spline to weight going from left to right, top first, then bottom - that I could weight it relatively easily - once I saw what a "starter" weighting scheme might be. I always hit done (never apply) and I did all weighting in an action window. I included both photoshop files in the zip - incase you wanted to also show eg of alternative spline layout/weighting Lip_weights.zip Edited November 12, 2009 by NancyGormezano Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HomeSlice Posted November 12, 2009 Share Posted November 12, 2009 I still am not sure why you were going thru so many steps. I found that since it was so easy to find the bones,.... My goal for the Face Weighting tutorial was for it to be a helpful guide for weighting with any kind of rig. As you discovered, all those extra steps aren't really necessary with the LiteFace. But if you use another rig, there are Zillions of bones, and finding the one you want in the CP Weights Bone Combo Box is not easy. In fact, it can be downright frustrating. So I figured it would be useful to more people if I described a workflow that would make weighting with a much more complex rig less suicide inducing. However, if you have discovered some way to streamline the process, please outline them and I will see abut incorporating them in an update to the tutorial. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NancyGormezano Posted November 12, 2009 Author Share Posted November 12, 2009 (edited) But if you use another rig, there are Zillions of bones, and finding the one you want in the CP Weights Bone Combo Box is not easy. In fact, it can be downright frustrating. So I figured it would be useful to more people if I described a workflow that would make weighting with a much more complex rig less suicide inducing. However, if you have discovered some way to streamline the process, please outline them and I will see abut incorporating them in an update to the tutorial. I thought you already had a different (and excellent) tutorial for "How to weight cp's" - ie a general weighting method? I am all for a general description for understanding how to apply it to other situations. I just think in this case, it might be presented in the wrong place. I don't think I've discovered anything to streamline the process. I pretty much do what I believe is suggested (what you have suggested) in order to assign weights to cps that are influenced by multiple bones. In general: 1) In MODEL window, modeling mode: Select group of cps that are to be weighted with the same percentages. Hit Lock 2) In MODEL window, switch to bones mode - assign all locked cps to 1 of the influencing bones, then assign at least 1 cp in the group to the other of the influencing bones. This will make the cp weighting process easier in following steps. 3) Open an ACTION window (if not already open), go into muscle mode, select locked cp's, right click - choose edit cp weights 4) In the CP EDIT dialog box - All the cp's that belong in the group should show in the left most box, all the bones that were selected in step 2 above will show in the right most top box with percentages (some may have ?). Click on bone name at top of dialog, edit it's weight in bottom most box of dialog. Repeat for all bones influencing that group of CP's - ie click on next bone name, edit weight, etc. Make all weights add up to 100 %. Click DONE. Do not close action window. Repeat from step 1, for the next group of CP's to be weighted. The above needs language cleanup, pictures of the cp weighting dialog box, with the lite face bones. For clarity, it helps me (and maybe others) in many cases if 1) the goal (and maybe why it's the goal) is stated up front & 2) the how (and maybe the why it's done a certain way). I like to know why I'm doing it, rather than just following steps. You have very useful general information about cp ordering (which I never knew about), as well as the pitfalls of the cp dialog etc - but perhaps some is "out of scope" or "out of place" - ie bogs down the process of lip weighting for the liteface rig (and makes rabid lite-o-philes, such as moi, cry for days). I do not want to see all that good detail lost. The pitfalls could be highlighted in one of your "warning boxes", the general method perhaps as an appendix, or perhaps to the other document you've written. Might not disrupt the ease/flow of the liteface weighting process document. These are only my opinions, experiences. You write wonderfully, much clearer than I. Newbies and/or others might feel differently. Edited November 15, 2009 by NancyGormezano Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NancyGormezano Posted November 15, 2009 Author Share Posted November 15, 2009 er Yup - here's Rita being tested with this month's 11 sec club dialog. I used every control for the face except the tongue. Yes - she still needs work, but I wanted to try it out. Thanks again for the literig cocoonhairroughmp4medium.mov Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HomeSlice Posted November 15, 2009 Share Posted November 15, 2009 That's funny Nancy. Nine cans, huh? Is Rita, perchance, one of your alter-egos? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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