AM 2008 rig

[mtpeak2]

I haven't had much time to work on the rig lately.

 

Hmm, I guess the hand controls work ok?

[KenH]

Just found the update now....

 

It feels abit odd animating the fingers on a bone perpendicular to them. I'd favour the way it is in the squetch rig. But it's not a "deal breaker".

 

As for the control.....yeah, working quite well. I'd prefer to have the fingers curl on all joints when the bone is rotated on the x axis. I'm not sure what the thinking is, but fingers bending on just the first knuckle joints isn't all that common.

[mtpeak2]

As I said, I wasn't too happy with it yet.

 

If you unhide the finger controls and use the small upright bones to clench the fingers (roll handle), using the X axis on the main controller, you can unclench the first knuckle. That's where the thinking was coming from, but that will probably change.

 

The reason behind the perpendicular bone is because I didn't really like the position of the hand gizmo. It tends to get confusing as to which bone to grab, hand or gizmo, so I changed the orientation.

 

I think I need to use expressions for the controls. I just can't find a way with constraints or relationships to get the controller to work properly. I'm working on a plan for expressions now.

 

The hand gizmo is a brilliant piece of work and I can't compete with that.

 

Thanks for the feedback.

[mtpeak2]

Ok, added expressions to the hand clench controller. Works similar to the hand gizmo. It doesn't have all the control as the hand gizmo, but I don't think it needs it, or maybe it does? You tell me.

 

It uses less control bones and expressions than the hand gizmo. It's not perfect, but it will do for now, til you tell me otherwise.

 

 

[EDIT] New update below.

[itsjustme]

This is the first time I've looked at the updated hand controls, so I'll mash my comments together a little.

 

The updated finger controls are pretty cool. What I think would be a good addition are carpal bones, so that you could cup the hand. Just some bones with "aim at" and "scale to reach" on them would do the job, translating the finger controllers to move them.

 

For the Gizmo, it appears to do the job.

 

As with any new system, it took me a few minutes to get used to it, but I think it works great. Lots of great stuff, Mark!

[mtpeak2]

Thanks David. I was thinking about the carpals bones, but wasn't really sure if they were needed. They're easy enough to add.

 

I think what it needs more is a forearm twist fan, I'm not liking how the wrist looks when rotating the hand. So I'll put that on my to do list.

[KenH]

The X axis of the hand gizmo feels much better now.

Looking at the Y axis, the fingers raise up......that's a move that is needed sometimes, but for the majority of occasions, you're just going to want the fingers to delay going down. That means you have to use the X axis with the Y axis to get natural results. This seems counter productive. Gizmos to me are ways to get quick natural results. If anything else is needed, then it's on with the finger bones.

 

I agree with the forearm needing to twist (more?) with the wrist.

[mtpeak2]

Added carpal bones and forearm twist fans.

 

Ken, I'll see about adding lag to the fingers when using the X rotation of the controller.

 

 

[EDIT] New version posted.

[mtpeak2]

I added lag to the fingers when using the controller on the X axis. What is a good lag time? This has 2, 4, 6 frame lag for the ring, middle and index fingers. (72 frames 24 fps)

finger_lag.mov

[mtpeak2]

Played a bit more with expressions to add translation to the fingers when rotating the control bone, to utilize the carpal bones. All hand/finger movement was animated by the control bone.

finger_lag_and_translation.mov

[KenH]

Cool! I didn't know you could delay expressions.

[mtpeak2]

The lag comes from the constraints to the target bones, the target bones have the expressions to the controller.

[mtpeak2]

Added more control to the hands.

 

Added lag to finger curl on the X axis of controller. (constraints)

Added Y translation of the fingers and thumbs when rotating the controllers on the X and Y axis. (expressions)

Added finger spread to the Z axis of the controller. (expressions)

 

I think I might make a few changes to the thumb controls. Should I fully incorporate the thumb into the controller or keep it separate? I'm in need of an opinion, what do you think?

 

[EDIT] New update below.

[KenH]

Should I fully incorporate the thumb into the controller or keep it separate?

 

I guess the thumb is pretty much tied to the rest of the fingers in what it does. But it would be nice to have a control bone there for any tweaks.

[mtpeak2]

The thumbs have separate controls, I wouldn't get rid of them. It would just get tied into the controller with expressions, just like the fingers (they have individual controls too, that can be used on top of the main controller).

[mtpeak2]

Ok, I incorporated the thumb into the controller, but there is collision when reopening the hand when rotating the controller on the X axis.

 

So, should I leave the thumb in or remove it from the controller? Just remove it from the X axis of the controller or from the whole thing? What do you think?

thumb.mov

[mtpeak2]

Added the thumb to the controller.

 

I don't think there is much more I can do with the hands.

 

Onto the next thing.

 

[EDIT] New update available.

[mtpeak2]

Boy, this is a tough crowd. No comments, nothing to say? Is Ken, David and Nancy the only people interested in the rig? I'm starting to think I'm wasting my time. I had plans for face controls using expressions and an installation rig, but why bother. I don't need the rig, this was for the community to use, so with no interest, there's no reason to continue.

[MJL]

Boy, this is a tough crowd. No comments, nothing to say? Is Ken, David and Nancy the only people interested in the rig? I'm starting to think I'm wasting my time. I had plans for face controls using expressions and an installation rig, but why bother. I don't need the rig, this was for the community to use, so with no interest, there's no reason to continue.

 

 

mtpeak2,

 

I can only speak for myself, but please continue. I've been following the thread but haven't posted before this because I'm such a newbie. Rigging is a major mystery to me and just reading this thread has given me a better picture of the process and what is involved, even though most of it is over my head at this point.

 

My experience with the 2001 rig when working through TaoA:M was frustrating and slowed down my momentum considerably. I'm sure that many, many, future newbies, who won't even know what you've done, or that they should thank you, will benefit from you efforts. It is not just the community that gains from your investment of time and trouble, but A:M as well. We're not a tough crowd, just mostly a quiet one. Thanks, and please continue. What exactly is an installation rig, anyway?

 

Myron

[Jeetman]

Boy, this is a tough crowd. No comments, nothing to say? Is Ken, David and Nancy the only people interested in the rig? I'm starting to think I'm wasting my time. I had plans for face controls using expressions and an installation rig, but why bother. I don't need the rig, this was for the community to use, so with no interest, there's no reason to continue.

 

Sorry Mark.

 

I haven't been following the rigging threads probably due to my severe inability to even comprehend rigging.

 

When it comes to rigging, you and David are GODS to me. I'm amazed at your rigging abilities and I think you are doing an incredible job. Without your participation to the rig, there was NO way I could animate the TWO characters with the ease that I do.

 

Thank you very much for all you do and PLEASE keep going!!!! I'll someday learn how to use this rig and as long as you keep tweeking it, it will get better and better each day.

 

George

[itsjustme]

I haven't had a chance to look at the latest version, but I should get to it sometime tonight.

[Caroline]

And I'm watching it - that was such a good hand movie, that I was thinking what it would take to have a little section on the end of my rig section replacing the TSM hand.

 

But you are such an expert, it's hard for other people to comment. Maybe you don't realise how HARD other people find rigging

[Rodney]

My thought (silly I know)

 

When I first saw your hand Mark I couldn't help but wonder if there was a way to have these hands completely detached from the body as fully functional yet separate components.

 

Obviously this would work better with some characters moreso than with others (a cartoon gloved character comes to mind) but the idea would be to attach the hands as needed rather than to have them as an integral part of the whole.

 

[Caroline]

I like that idea, Rodney - I guess there's no real reason why you can't have separate body parts rigged in the 'morgue'.

 

I don't have much time this week, but I might play with that one.

[itsjustme]

I did a little messing with the latest version and think a couple of things would be decent additions, but not deal-breakers at all.

 

I like how the thumb works with the Gizmo, but it would be cool if there was an option to exclude it. I got some good hand positions with it as-is, but I can see how it could be beneficial to have it independent.

 

I think putting some "Rotate Only" manipulator limits on the toes would be helpful.

 

That's all I could come up with in the way of suggestions...very solid, Mark!

[itsjustme]

My thought (silly I know)

 

When I first saw your hand Mark I couldn't help but wonder if there was a way to have these hands completely detached from the body as fully functional yet separate components.

 

Obviously this would work better with some characters moreso than with others (a cartoon gloved character comes to mind) but the idea would be to attach the hands as needed rather than to have them as an integral part of the whole.

 

 

 

I like that idea, Rodney - I guess there's no real reason why you can't have separate body parts rigged in the 'morgue'.

 

I don't have much time this week, but I might play with that one.

 

It could be done, but you would have to make the overall rig different depending on exactly how you want it to work.

 

If you want each part to be completely independent of the rest of the body and put into any rig, you would lose some of the things that rely on other parts...like steady shoulders, steady arms, auto hips, etc. It could be done though.

 

If you want each part to be plugin parts to add up to a whole character that all use the same rig, you could do it by changing the installation some. So, that could be done as well...just differently.

 

It's not a bad idea, but it would take a lot of work either way. To me, the second method would be the way to go, that way the number of variables is reduced.

[Jeetman]

Maybe you don't realise how HARD other people find rigging

 

I think I showed my feelings on this in my last post about Mark and David being GODs!! when it comes to rigging

 

 

George

[Gerry]

hey MT - when you were asking for more comments on your rigging work and got no responses, I tried to post something but for some reason was blocked from some of the rigging threads. It's fine now but maybe that had something to do with the lack of comments.

 

What I wanted to say was, I am intensely interested in your progress but my rigging skills constrain me to sitting with my mouth open and no sound coming out as I read this and other rigging threads. I know in the long run your work will be of great value. I strive every day to be able to someday work fluidly with the work you're doing now.

 

Gerry

[steve392]

Hooray I can post, Your new rig is looking graet Mark Ive been reading and trying it out ,can't waite to be able to try and use it

[Kamikaze]

Where's Mark ? has he given up on us? are U being blocked now? I guess that wasn't too funny....admirable work on the rig, regardless....

[jakerupert]

Hurra, I can post now as well.

 

I am very interested in your progress.

 

The hand looks superb.

 

Maybe it would be usefull especially for the beginners, to have a list here

of the pros and cons of the main riggs like TSM, 2001, 2008, Squetch?

 

Thank you very much for your work

 

Jake!

[mtpeak2]

Well, whether the lack of response was do to being blocked or not, I don't know. Why some were block I don't know either. This is the first I've heard of it.

 

The feedback I requested has nothing to do with the technical aspect of the rig, so not having the knowledge of rigging shouldn't be a reason not to post your opinion. I haven't asked how to rig something, all I asked was to try the rig and tell me how it preforms for you when animating.

 

 

David, I turn on rotate only on the toes. I've been working on isolating the thumb from the controller, so you'll be able to turn it ON/OFF. I still have a few things to work out, but I think I finally got it. I think that was the hardest thing I had to do in the rig so far, the expressions complicated things, since they're on all the time (you can't turn expressions OFF).

 

Caroline and Rodney, it's an interesting idea, but that's not my goal at the moment.

 

Thanks everybody for the comments.

[jakerupert]

>I had plans for face controls using expressions and an installation rig, but why bother.

 

 

( for example the hand IK lock on/ off seems to make no difference to me, but thats probably because the whole IK on/off thing still escapes me,why I would have to put it on anyhow, still so much to learn... )

 

Do I have to install this rig like the Standard 2001 rig for the time being?

 

Some face functions would be really great!!!

 

I m afraid thats asking too much , but if possible, could you make a very brief beginners tut (maybe just a pdf or txt file) for handling this rig?

[jakerupert]

One other suggestion/question:

 

How about altering the proportions of the body to a bit more realistic standard proportions

(like the Squetchy Sam for instance),

especaially make the shoulders wider and the feet and head a little smaller?

(he would need a new head for the face anyhow.)

 

Wouldn`t that make it more easy to adopt it for other characters?

[jakerupert]

According to my suggestion I tried to model a 20008 rigman.

 

It`s not meant to provocate anybody in any ways.

 

What do you think so far?

SimpleRigMan130808.mdl

[mtpeak2]

Thanks Jake, I'll consider it.

[mtpeak2]

Isolated the thumbs from the controllers with a switch to turn it on/off.

 

This is probably the last update with Thom as the model, barring any problems.

 

I'm not sure if Jake's model will be in the next update or not, it's not quite what I was looking for.

AMv13_2008_Rig4g.zip

[jakerupert]

I updated the model a bit and added the eyes and teeth, tongue from Gala.

 

Maybe I could try to add your rig myself?

 

Is it done the same way as with the 2001 rig?

SimpleRigMan130808.mdl

[mtpeak2]

I haven't tested it to see if it can be installed the same way as the 2001 rig. The rig went through some major changes in the last few updates, so I'm not sure if all the bones will be in the correct position after install.

[mtpeak2]

Hey Jake, I hope you don't mind, but I tweak your model a bit. Most of it was in the face (removed a few splines and shifted the cps around, new textures too). I may keep going to see how far I can push it. Need to do something with the ears. I think there was an ear model posted recently.

 

This was quite a change of pace for me, it gave me a break from rigging. Thanks for posting the model.

[martin]

Hey Jake, I hope you don't mind, but I tweak your model a bit. Most of it was in the face (removed a few splines and shifted the cps around, new textures too). I may keep going to see how far I can push it.

Nice polish, Mark... Yeah, keep pushing.

[Jeetman]

Mark,

 

Just played around with the rig and man it is awesome!!!!! I created a quick jabbing punch and noticed that when I switch to IK Arm and rotate the chest controller, the hand target is a child of the chest controller. Would it be possible to separate the hand target so that when IK arm is on, I could rotate the chest controller without moving the hand target? Maybe an IK switch for the chest controller (No Idea how it works)?

 

The reason for this would be to give total control of the spine without affecting the hand target position. This would be very useful for IK apps like leaning on something or getting your hand stuck.

 

When throwing a right straight punch (jab) for example, the hips/legs and torso rotate counter clockwise while the hand shoots out straight (like a piston action). Unless I missed a control option, this is not what's happening in IK Arm mode. The hips and legs rotate perfectly but if I rotate the chest controller, the right hand target moves with the chest controller.

 

Other than that, I LOVE this rig!!

 

Thanks,

George

 

[Edit]

 

Just noticed the shoulder geom is also a child and shouldn't be to keep the hand target from moving.

 

One more request if possible....

 

One control I use a lot with the squetchy rig is the shoulder shrugging one (not sure what it's called) it's an on off switch that allows you to shrugg the shoulders without raising the arms. It was requested by Robert Holmen and implemented in the squetchy rig. If possible, could you add that control?

 

Thanks again,

George

[mtpeak2]

Thanks George.

 

Turn ON the "Right/Left IK Hand Lock" poses under the Arms folder (was under Hands in previous versions). This will allow you to rotate the chest controller and shoulders without moving the IK Hand targets.

 

Turn On the "Steady Right/Left IK Arm" poses to shrug the shoulders in IK arms, it maintains the arms orientation (is not affective with the hand lock poses ON).

 

The things you're asking for are already there in the Arms folder.

[jakerupert]

>Hey Jake, I hope you don't mind, but I tweak your model a bit.

 

 

And I pretty much have done the same before:

I took your hands and feet and some bodyparts and head from my morgue,

put it all together and pushed and tweaked cps. ( I guess and hope that is legitimate )

[mtpeak2]

I swiped the hands from another model, ears too (next version).

 

Since he's put together from body parts, from the morgue, I think we should call him Franky.

[mtpeak2]

Thanks to williamgaylord for the ear mesh, he now has new ears.

 

What a pain stitching them in, no wonder I usually stick to rigging.

 

Now with the face just about done, I can starting thing about how to rig the face and installing the 2008 rig.

[steve392]

Thats good news Mark I have a model ready and waiting

[Jeetman]

The things you're asking for are already there in the Arms folder.

 

awesome!!

 

Not to be a party pooper because the rig is outstanding but you are trying to perfect the rig so I did find one more issue but I'm not sure exactly what I did to make it happen so I'll give you my best recollection of what I did.

 

When I was playing around with the finger controls (to form a semi closed fist to a tight fist and relaxed again) I some how adjusted something that prevented me from controlling the fingers. After a few adjustments, the fingers started to distort and no matter how much I tried to tweek the "x", "y" or "z" rotations, I could not get the fingers to work. Also, something very strange happened that completely confused me. The fingers kept moving as I scrubbed past the last frame. There were no keys so it made no sense to me.

 

Here's the action of the jab I did. It's only a quick animation but you'll see what I'm talking about. load the action and scrub the frames. The fingers are behaving strange and if you scrub past the last frame, you'll see the fingers are still moving.

 

Here's the action created in ver. 14.0c

 

jab2.zip

 

George

[mtpeak2]

There is a lag on the finger when using the X axis, this is why the fingers continue to move after the last frame.

 

I'll look at the action.

[mtpeak2]

Your initial pose had the fingers bent pretty far backwards. I would use just the X axis of the controller (use the Y axis to counter the lag if necessary). There are also poses to make a fist. Your action was quite short in terms of frames (6), the lag takes 8 frames to complete the fist using the X axis.

 

I could remove the lag if this is an issue or create a percentage pose to make it adjustable (if possible, I think you can animate lag). Also, I could add an euler limit to the controller too, so you can't get the fingers too far out of position.