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KenH

TWO Hair

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I did a quick test on getting half decent hair on Chopfyt. The style obviously isn't right, but the hair effect doesn't look too bad. I cranked up the density and it still rendered quite fast.

chop.jpg

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Oh no. I can't shake that image now!

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This is the bar we have to reach. So, why isn't it the same? Is it all to do with the lighting?

hair.jpg

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So, that means donkey is the bar. I think AM can handle it even shrek 2 hair though...it's just my ability is lacking at the moment. I'm going to get as close as possible. Or maybe we'll be going for less realism in hair? Less dense hair would help with render times.

Decisions, decisions.

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The way AM currently shades hair means you probably won't be able to match Shrek2 level hair. I'm currently working on an improved hair shader, which will hopefully make it in to version 13 (if not I'll just release it independantly). This should give you much more realistic looking hair, and hopefully allow us to achieve better looking hair, especially on the humans. I'll try and post some samples tonight, maybe I'll even test it on some of the two characters...still gotta get going on that castle corridor too...

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I'm currently working on an improved hair shader, which will hopefully make it in to version 13 (if not I'll just release it independantly). This should give you much more realistic looking hair, and hopefully allow us to achieve better looking hair, especially on the humans. I'll try and post some samples tonight, maybe I'll even test it on some of the two characters...still gotta get going on that castle corridor too...

You know what you need, Kevin? You need more to do...

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Kevin, if you need help on the corridor model, let me know. You should spend as much time on hair as possible. Can't wait to see what you got.

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So, I finished up the shaders this weekend (hopefully in the next release) and had some time tonight to mess around with some TWO hair styles. This is more for a comparison of the hair shaders than a real haircut for Chopfyt (AM's styling tools still need some work, great for fur but hard to use for creating realistic human hair styles). Anyway, here's the hair with the original hair shading and the new muhHair shader (a port of an XSI hair shader). I did my best to make the original match as much as possible but it just doesn't work even remotely the same (I couldn't even make the colors match). Anyway, let me know what you think.

 

Kevin

 

 

 

p.s. a couple of movies I did for Bob showing the differences also.

 

p.p.s Here's some images I did a while back for the other shader, kajiya-kay. Both show of the nice backlighting that can be achieved with this shader (fast too). (why does it keep appending my posts now? ack!)

post-740-1147749599_thumb.jpg

post-740-1147749627_thumb.jpg

muhHairBall.mov

origHairBall.mov

post-740-1147750314_thumb.jpg

post-740-1147750334_thumb.jpg

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Wowsers! That's a vast improvement. Do dynamics work well with it? Will this become the AM standard? I agree about the grooming tools. I'd like to be able to:

 

Change the sixe of the groom influence sphere

Select multiple hair cps at the one time

Etc

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Well done, Kevin!

 

Your hair shader really improves the quality of A:M hair. My AM hair tends to stick out in every direction but usually calms down by 12:00 o'clock. ;)

 

Have you tested this under various lighting conditions, Kevin? It looks superb in the test shot!

----------------------

I'm looking forward to seeing this hair on Sully. That should look amazing! :)

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WOW! I love everything about this new shader. Backlighting, realistic highlighting, etc... NICE!

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Thanks guys! hopefullly it'll be useful to people.

 

Ken, the hair is still the same that AM currently has, the only thing different is the way it's shaded. You now have the option of setting hair unique diffuse and specular shaders. The existing hair shading is still quite useful for certain applications (i.e. grass, feathers, etc.) but the muhhair shader should work much better for human hair. I don't believe it will become the default shading but I could be wrong. Also, Bob Croucher has discussed several grooming improvements he'd like to implement so hopefully we'll see some of those show up sometime soon (hint hint Bob).

 

Paul, I haven't tested it under a whole lot of different lighting conditions but I could certainly try that with the current setup, I'll see what I can come up with. Still have to finish Sully....

 

thanks Zaryin, glad you like it.

 

Kevin

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Cool. If you want to test it Kevin, the Green Monkey is ready on the SVN (hint hint ;) )

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Well there is one remaining bug in the area the helps with short hair but once that's fixed (Bob is looking into it) and I get more time (hopefully in the next week or two) I'll get to work on green monkey. Heck, I have to since I took on this shader project because I got so frustrated trying to add decent looking hair to Green Monkey in the first place!

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Wow, that's a great looking hairball! If only my cat could produce such a thing.

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YES. Kudos on the shader, Kevin! Looks like it sheens real nice and catches a nice rimlight, as well as adds that 'just shampooed AND conditioned...' look. Hech, I bet my hair will even SMELL better!!! Can't WAIT!

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Only had one character with hair, so I used that, but I didn't set the hair as good as Kevin can. :)

 

AO: on

 

One light with diffuse and spec

 

Hair Diffuse and Spec shader on: MuhHair. I just don't know enough of what each shader can do, or hair in general. :(

 

Used my old Jinx character.

v13_AOnewhair.jpg

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Wow, I just saw this hair topic for the first time, and must say your implamentation of the muhhair looks great.

 

As for grooming methods have you every herd of hair cells/cages? They are basicaly distortion cages that have hair that grows from one end to another. They are pretty cool because of how easily they sculpt lage quantities of hair.

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Were do you find this Muhhair shader. In the projects I down loaded I am see a hair material with a FBM attribute. What am I missing here?

 

In the "Materials" section of the PWS, select the "Hair Emitter" under the "Hair System" of the hair material, expand the "Surface" properties, go to the bottom and look in the "Diffuse Render Shader" and "Specular Render Shader".

 

Hope that helps.

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Kevin- I could'nt help to notice that in the earlier examples you posted..the 'guys face' with the muhair added...his skin looked a LOT different as well...

 

Does the muhair effect the skin as well?

 

(And if you guys have already discussed this ...I apologise for skipping thru the posts...)

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I don't believe it does effects the skin. My guess is he did abit of "photoshop perfecting" which effects the whole image...

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Actually, I'm not a 100% sure what happened there. It shouldn't effect the skin at all but you're right, it is different. It almost looks like I turned off the fill light on the muhHair render.

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Crap, it appears to be something related to the hair. I just did a test render of woot with and without his new hair, here's the diff. The only thing I would expect to see different is the hair but this shows a difference all over the place. Looks like I need to talk to Bob before submitting this...

 

 

 

And here are the two images I compared, keep in mind this is the exact same setup one with hair enabled, one with hair turned off.

post-740-1152847724_thumb.jpg

post-740-1152847855_thumb.jpg

post-740-1152847909_thumb.jpg

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I looks to me like the lighting is different. There is a light coming from under that does not seem to shine light in the hair render.

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Yep, the lighting looks different but it's not. All I did was turn off hair (which uses muhHair) and rerender. It happened with the Chopfyt test earlier too as Matt pointed out. I sent an email to Bob Croucher about it to see if he has any ideas.

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Guys,

to get rid of the hair plug look at the scalp--- in the timeline for the thickness attribute for hair material, shape the hair very thin at the base... it will appear to be "rooted" in the skin.

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re-hashing this old topic--- I am trying to get muhair shader to work... I turned it on for the specular and diffuse under my hair's property... I see no difference when I render...there has to be a step I am missing? Do you need to ligth a certain way or set the camera's attributes ???

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I tried that last...then I left work so I don't know if it worked. I imagine the shader works better under certain lighting conditions than others. I am pretty much using it with its 'default' settings...do I need to tweek them, as I see there are a lot of options.- Thanks Colin!

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You'll probably want to set up a glancing angle light to get the hilite right. A back light would work well to, but you may not want the character backlit. The point of the new shaders is that they show specular highlites that look more like real hair. The old hair looked more like fur. To see the hilites you need to light the character with fill or back lighting.

 

In other words.. lighting your characters just got alot more like lighting real actors in the movies. Its actually a good thing, since a character will almost always look better with fill light on them.

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Hey fellas,

 

Sorry to bring up this old topic but I have a general hair question.

 

Let's say I have a character (say...I dunno Nick Chopper) and there happens to be another character that needs to have similar hair (mebbe Chopfyt). Is there any way to copy the combing adjustments to another model? I've tried to just copy the "skull cap" group but all of the grooming info is gone. This would save me mucho time

 

Thanks a bunch,

 

Lee

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I think there is a recent thread from John Bigboot about this. He uses a pose slider to set up a transition between loose, lank hair at 0% and a stiff, laquered hairdo at 100%. I haven't tried this approach but it sounds good to me.

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I think there is a recent thread from John Bigboot about this. He uses a pose slider to set up a transition between loose, lank hair at 0% and a stiff, laquered hairdo at 100%. I haven't tried this approach but it sounds good to me.

 

Okay, hold on a minute here (remember it's me you're talking to ;) ), so how would I use this approach between the two models? I'm afraid I'm not very familiar with the animation tools. So you would set up a pose with Nick chopper as the combed hair and then use that pose on Chopfyt?

 

Am I on the right track? Thanks Paul...I seem to cause a lot of trouble for you :D

 

Lee

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It's BigBoot-tay---Boot-TAY! (Quoting John Lithgow from Bucaroo Banzai...and chuckling quietly to myself...)

 

It sounds like Jimmy is asking about copying and pasting hair from one finished character to another character.

 

In my tests, if you copy and paste the geometry that the hair is applied to, you will lose all styling data...I havent tried this since V11.1X so it may have changed. There IS a workaround, however. If you think inversely you will understand... leave the hair/geometry be...delete all the other geometry from the model, and paste the NEW character's geometry/splineage into the model and adjust...and most important: SAVE_AS new name. Hopefully, you havent rigged your new character, as all that jazz won't copy/paste over, so do this operation prior.

 

Boot-TAY!!!

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copying and pasting probably wont work but try saving the skulcap as its own model and importing that into the other model. That should, in theory, work.

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"Monkey-boys have entered the thread"

 

Thank you John Bigbooty, I've thought about this too, but this is Nick Chopper and Chopfyt we're talkin' 'bout. I guess I'm outa luck but hold on a second!

 

 

copying and pasting probably wont work but try saving the skulcap as its own model and importing that into the other model. That should, in theory, work.

 

I'll give this a try today or tomorrow. Thanks Colin!

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I'm not sure if this will work, If I remember correctly. I think the only way this will work is if the grooming on Chopfyt was done in a percentage pose (which it wasn't) then importing the skullcap with the pose. The only other way is to import the model into the skullcap model, but that will not work since Chopfyt is already rigged (it screws up the pose sliders of the rig). I'll do a quick test and see if it's possible.

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Ok, did my experimenting. You can't import the skullcap into the model, hair material does not import with it. But, a good one though, YOU CAN IMPORT SKULLCAPS AS ACTION OBJECTS IN AN ON/OFF POSE ON THE MODEL. This works quite well, setup an on/off pose for Chopfyt, import the skullcap as an action object, constraint the skullcap with a translate and orient like constraint to the head geom bone using compensate mode. Now you have a pose to import the skullcap to Chopfyt already groomed.

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Ok, did my experimenting. You can't import the skullcap into the model, hair material does not import with it. But, a good one though, YOU CAN IMPORT SKULLCAPS AS ACTION OBJECTS IN AN ON/OFF POSE ON THE MODEL. This works quite well, setup an on/off pose for Chopfyt, import the skullcap as an action object, constraint the skullcap with a translate and orient like constraint to the head geom bone using compensate mode. Now you have a pose to import the skullcap to Chopfyt already groomed.

 

 

Mark, I've said it before and I'll say it again: You are the MAN! Thanks a lot. You don't know how much time this has saved me!

 

One question, did you commit those changes to Chopfyt, or were these instructions for me? I don't mind doing it, I'm just trying to avoid conflict

 

Lee

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No, I didn't commit it, it was just a test. If you want me to do it, I will, or I'll help you get through it.

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No, I didn't commit it, it was just a test. If you want me to do it, I will, or I'll help you get through it.

 

Let's worry about that when I'm done texturing. I'll pm you if I need help, or if it's hopeless for me and I need you to do it ;)

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Sounds like a plan. Just PM me when you start, so I can give you a quick rundown on how to save the skullcap.

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This one time? At hair camp?

 

I actually did this once. I copied the hair from one model into another using a text editor. It wasn't pretty and I did it a long time ago. If I come across how I did this I will post it.

 

The trick was finding the exact spots in both models for the hair. When it works it works perfectly... in a complex model it can be hard to find that spot.

 

-vern

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p.p.s Here's some images I did a while back for the other shader, kajiya-kay. Both show of the nice backlighting that can be achieved with this shader (fast too). (why does it keep appending my posts now? ack!)

Kevin, could you please post the project you used to generate the backlit purple fuzzball? I've tried to backlight a model with Kajiya-Kay hair, but the hairs just show up black; they don't have any translucency to them.

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