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Bendytoons

Fire

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Bob has given me the go ahead to start getting some lighting and effects preproduction work going. The first thing that jumped out at me form the script is the variety of fire that we will need. Campfires, torches, coalfire, and probably candles and lamps too.

 

So I thought I'd begin a thread to start thinking about fire in TWO.

 

I look at fire as two issues. First is the fx issue of creating convincing flame. Second is the lighting issue of creating convincing firelight.

 

As far as the fx go, I found some useful discussions already on the forum, pointing some different directions.

One solution is particles as seen in this post:

 

http://www.hash.com/forums/index.php?s=&sh...ndpost&p=142218

 

The thread contains a very interesting discussion of fire in general. It brings up another method for fire -cloth:

 

http://www.hash.com/forums/index.php?s=&sh...ndpost&p=142435

 

A third aproach, using geometry can be found:

 

http://www.hash.com/forums/index.php?s=&sh...ndpost&p=143730

http://www.hash.com/forums/index.php?s=&sh...ndpost&p=149109

 

Each of these methods has some promise, and each seems best suited to particular types of fire.

I would think of using particles for coallfire, lamps, and maybe campfires.

I think the cloth looks good for campfires and hearthfires, though maybe combined with one of the other methods depending on how close you are.

The geometry method has the best look for matches, candles, and torches because it gives you distinct flames. It also seems to have the most cartoon look of the three.

 

Another thought is that we might want to choose one option to keep the fire consistent.

 

I'll leave it at that as the opening thought and pick up the lighting side in a later post. Please share your thoughts, ideas, and collective knowledge.

 

-Ben

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I agree. Consistency would be the best policy. Pick the method that blends into the existing world most effectively.

I also like the cloth method. Particle smoke would make it even better.

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I like the way the cloth fire looks, but I am worried that this way will just not be convincing enough. I have seen impressives smoke with particles and sprtiacles. I have seen good explosions with spritacles. The closest I saw to real good fire was Will Sutton's fire using spritacles.

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Quick proof of concept for a dynamic torch fire.

 

Uses dynamic bones for directional deformation, and sub frame animation for flame movement. Also 100% motion blur to soften the flame

 

Here's the prj.

 

I wanted to add particle smoke, but I've never used A:M particles and it didn't work out on this pass.

Also there's a pose to lengthen the flame that I hope to drive with the angle of the flame. This would add some elongation when the torch is moving.

torch.mov

torch.zip

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That looks pretty good. Can you post the project with the light and I'll add some particle smoke to it. I tried adding a bone light in the first project but it doesn't render for some reason.

Also, I upped the transparency of the map to 10000 but it still didn't become transparent.

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That looks pretty good. Can you post the project with the light and I'll add some particle smoke to it. I tried adding a bone light in the first project but it doesn't render for some reason.

Also, I upped the transparency of the map to 10000 but it still didn't become transparent.

 

thanks, Ken. I got particles working and I'm rendering a version with smoke and flicker. I'll post both a movie and the prj whenit's done.

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I love the look of that flame, especially if we were doing toon, but as far as I know we're not. I still think some sort of spritacle flame will probably work the best. This flame just looks too cartoony to me. But since I have crappy lighting skills I'll just wait and see where this goes :).

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I love the look of that flame, especially if we were doing toon, but as far as I know we're not. I still think some sort of spritacle flame will probably work the best. This flame just looks too cartoony to me. But since I have crappy lighting skills I'll just wait and see where this goes :).

 

No question that looks kinda toony right now, but that's 2 hours work on a proof of concept. I think you could push it closer to realism.

Having said that I'd love to see some good spritacle fire. Have a go at it, or just point out some you think works really well. My intent here is to work in public in hopes that people will see what I do and show me the easy way to do it, or the better way to do it.

 

Ben

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I think the smoke should come out of the tip rather than the base.

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I think the smoke should come out of the tip rather than the base.

 

And so shall it be. I also upped the transparency, made the smoke non-addative, and reduced the motion blur. I compressed the sub frame action to match with the new blur setting.

torch5.mov

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Gneur....I'm not complaining. Just saying what doesn't look right to me.

 

The flame seems too transparent. It seems like it should just be transparent at the tips. It seems lifeless now.

The smoke is too big and sparce. It should follow the flame and have a shorter life. Judging by the way the flame is acting.

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Gneur....I'm not complaining. Just saying what doesn't look right to me.

 

The flame seems too transparent. It seems like it should just be transparent at the tips. It seems lifeless now.

The smoke is too big and sparce. It should follow the flame and have a shorter life. Judging by the way the flame is acting.

 

Sorry, Ken. I didn't think you were complaining, that's a common turn of phrase in my house, I forget not everyone has the same context.

 

Ben

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I didn't think you were accusing me of complaining, but you might from what followed that phrase....so I was appologising before hand. Geez this internet can get you in trouble so easy. :D

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I love the look of that flame, especially if we were doing toon, but as far as I know we're not. I still think some sort of spritacle flame will probably work the best. This flame just looks too cartoony to me. But since I have crappy lighting skills I'll just wait and see where this goes :).

 

No question that looks kinda toony right now, but that's 2 hours work on a proof of concept. I think you could push it closer to realism.

Having said that I'd love to see some good spritacle fire. Have a go at it, or just point out some you think works really well. My intent here is to work in public in hopes that people will see what I do and show me the easy way to do it, or the better way to do it.

 

Ben

WE ARE DOING A CARTOON

BT

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Bob ? just wondering ...will TWO be rendered with Toon settings?

Sorry if you have already answered this somewhere....

 

Thanks,

Michael

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Bob ? just wondering ...will TWO be rendered with Toon settings?

Sorry if you have already answered this somewhere....

 

Thanks,

Michael

no sweat, we are not rendering in toon....full photo real.so far theats the plan but who knows...

BT

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I think we should render both. Just like full and wide screen, but 3d and toon.

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WE ARE DOING A CARTOON

BT

 

I meant as in Toon line rendering. I think that flame is great for toon line rendering, but if we are rendering with regular settings I think it's too toony (As in flat and 2D looking) :).

 

There is no offence meant by my posts, becuase I do think the fire looks great.

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Okay. I spent today learning the sprite system. Here's my best shot at spriticle fire so far.

 

I have not thus far found sprite settings that produce fire that looks good both at rest and moving, but thats probably inexperience.

 

Personally I still prefer the geometry approach, I like the look better, and I like the control.

torch7.mov

torch7.zip

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Not liking that. It seems you're using the dynamic model. You should let the sprite system handle the delay. Also, avoid using straight line images in the sprites. It's very noticable when the torch moves.

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I had abit of a play. I think you may have been thinking of the "over life" option as over the life of the chor. It's over the life of the sprite. Anyway....here's the result. It still could be better and needs smoke.

torch7.mov

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I think your fire moves better than mine, but it is too regular for my taste. It looks like a rocket burner instead of a living flame. But maybe we can find the settings somewhere between the two. Thanks for having a go, can you post your prj file so I can learn what you did?

 

Ben

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I think your fire moves better than mine, but it is too regular for my taste. It looks like a rocket burner instead of a living flame.

That can be solved by increasing the amount of variation in the size and transparency of the sprites.

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I think your fire moves better than mine, but it is too regular for my taste.
That can be solved by increasing the amount of variation in the size and transparency of the sprites.
And further by having more than one emitter, and have those emitters wobbling around (at different and varying rates). (I haven't inspected any of the posted project files, so I don't know if your emitting patches are separate from the torch surface patches.)

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I think your fire moves better than mine, but it is too regular for my taste.
That can be solved by increasing the amount of variation in the size and transparency of the sprites.
And further by having more than one emitter, and have those emitters wobbling around (at different and varying rates). (I haven't inspected any of the posted project files, so I don't know if your emitting patches are separate from the torch surface patches.)

 

Thankyou. Obvious, but clever. I will try this when I play more with fire (ouch).

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Here's the prj. Just put it in the same directory as your one. Maybe you could "enhance" the base of the fire...ie the top of the model. It doesn't seem right.

 

PS I did this in v13 so I don't know if it'll work in previous versions. All you need is the material out of it though.

fire.zip

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Option 8x sub version 3 alpha .5

 

http://www.colins-loft.net/free/examples/s...fire/fire2x.mov

 

and the project of course...

 

http://www.colins-loft.net/free/examples/s...20fire/fire.PRJ

 

 

I think the trick (and I definately havent accomplished it.. it vary the emission rate and drag over time and not just by increasing the randomness, but by actually animating these properties in the choreography. That will create the billow. Then you'd need multiple emitters to get multiple tongues of flame.

 

If you get the color just right.. you could even do some compositing tricks to create more liquid looking flames and less smokey.

 

The spriticles I used for this example where just readily available off of the cd.. I'd probably use a different more blurred sprite if I was going to give it more than 15 minutes.

 

The look of fire has allot to do with the distance its seen at and whats burning.

 

as examples.. and perhaps reference.. I'll post my examples from another "cough" program that mimics flames fairly well. (not saying its better... its not, it just makes some things well)

 

http://www.colins-loft.net/free/fire%20example.mov

 

C

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Okay, I've returned to burning things. Thanks to everyone who has taught me the intricacies of spritacles.

 

My latest attempt looks much better. I've used animated sprites- better shape with low level motion built in. The current iteration uses just one anmated sprite- twice. The second emitter rotates the sprite 180 degree. Clearly the effect could be even better with the introduction of a couple more distinct sprites.

fire12.mov

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Yes. I think we're definitely getting places....fire places! :D

 

I'd like to see less exposure (not as white) on the fire. Also some smoke...and you can see some repitition in the flames....if you could eliminate that.

 

PS The second example in Colin's post seems too realistic for our needs.

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Yes. I think we're definitely getting places....fire places! :D

 

I'd like to see less exposure (not as white) on the fire. Also some smoke...and you can see some repitition in the flames....if you could eliminate that.

 

PS The second example in Colin's post seems too realistic for our needs.

 

Yes, I agree on all points. Though I will look at Colin's example as I build a few more sprites. Once there are a few different sprites interacting, I think the repetition will fade into the chaos.

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"Come by ah m'lord, come by ah...." Ah. Brings me back to my old scouting days. :D

 

I think you nailed it. How's it on the torch? Now onto the rain!

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Yessss! I think that's starting to look just like what we need. Great.

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the speed of the flames is to slow. It should probably be 2x faster. I noticed this on my render and sped it up in post.

 

The flames look awesome though.

 

C

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Am I crazy, or does anyone else remember the ability to control things like particle velocity and color with maps?

 

If so, would be a good place to make hay in making the fire a little less uniform.

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Here's the same basic set up, but with another spriteshape added. I also varied the sprite systems a litlle more.

 

Colin, I tried speeding it up, but didn't like the effect. It is a little faster. I think this is one of those realism v. stylism questions that won't really get answered 'til we see the effect in place.

fire21.mov

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I think that looks awsome Bendytoons! With a crackling fire sound in the background and the whole thing in a hearth and the rest of the room lit by it... it will be VERY convincing!

 

Good work!

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One other tweak for me might be the smoke. It seems to be spinning abit too fast. It should be lazy IMO.

Also, fireplaces are usually higher in the middle. Yours is abit. But it's only a small point.

Looks great otherwise....including the background. We might be able to use that.

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I think that one nails it pretty good bendy toons. Perhaps its just the particle difference but the speed seems right.

 

Now my only other comment is.. Thats quiet the inferno for a small fire. is there anyway to spread the flames and then them out a little without losing the effect you have going. the flame tongues are great.. can you post the project with the extra sprite to play with?

 

Good Job!

 

C

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I agree the smoke needs work, I was thinking of animating a swirl in 2d. But, as dust is one of the next challenges I thought I'd wait to see what new insight that brought to lazy, swirly clouds.

 

I think the specifics will be tweaked on a scene by scene basis depending on what kind of fire (torch or inferno), how prominent it is in the scene, and what Bob thinks is working for the scene. For that reason I'm not going to do a whole lot of tweaking until I have a context to tweak in.

 

Here is the project with extra sprite.

fire14.zip

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