mouseman Posted July 3, 2005 Share Posted July 3, 2005 MouseMan, I'm so sorry - Darn it!, could you repost, in my morning stooper I accidentally killed your post. So sorry, Mike Fitz www.3dartz.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
3DArtZ Posted July 4, 2005 Share Posted July 4, 2005 Hey guys, I accidentally killed Mouseman's post.... so, if you're slightly confused by the above, it's my fault. Please repost if you get a chance Mousman.... Mike Fitz www.3dartz.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mtpeak2 Posted July 4, 2005 Share Posted July 4, 2005 Yes, there is a problem the way the fingers are setup. Here's a quick fix, it's not a perfect solution, but it will help. Go to the user properties of your model and turn on show fingers. Right click on the hand clench poses and choose edit relationship. At 50% of the pose straighten the finger bones to the correct position. You can do this at 25% and 75% if just the 50% isn't enough. Mike I read the post before you killed it. I believe this is the problem he was refering to. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
3DArtZ Posted July 4, 2005 Share Posted July 4, 2005 Hey Mark, thanks! Also in reguards to the original question which was along the lines of "I am trying to put the A:M rig into my character, but the fingers are rotating incorrectly".... Did you drag the rig from a different model? If so, was it working correctly in the first model? Another thing to be careful about is.... don't rotate the bones or do anything but scale the entire rig to fit yours otherwise you might put errant data into the bones channels or you might alter the "starting" point of the bones, as the poses will allways end up with the "originally created" positions. Meaning that the 100% or On positions of the pose sliders don't take into conisderation any changes you've made to bone position or rotation. Mike Fitz www.3dartz.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mtpeak2 Posted July 4, 2005 Share Posted July 4, 2005 Hey Mike. Bone position is critical, but in bones mode. You have to position the bones correctly or the fingers will not work properly (scaling doesn't always get the bones in the right position). The hand clench poses use an orient like and a roll like constrain, there are no channels for bone position. The problem is in the way the constraints work, you have 1 bone controling 3 bones. Two bone roll like and one orients like the finger bone, so when you roll (z axis) the finger bone it change the way it orients (x axis) causing an arcing motion of the finger bone. I don't have a solution to the problem, any ideas? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
3DArtZ Posted July 4, 2005 Share Posted July 4, 2005 Hey Mark, I'm not sure I'm following you exactly. So, this is what my brain pulled up from what you wrote... I can use the scale feature in bones mode to fit bones exactly where they need to be. Like say you start by scaling the whole model from the root bone... the over all height is ok, but the shoulders are in the wrong spot. You pick something like the upper back and scale that until the shoulder wind up in the right spot, then if you need to you scale down the back independantly. That keeps things relative. But what I was saying with the fingers is, say the original bones model rotation position is starting x:0, y:0, z:0 and it rotates to x:0,y:90,z0 in a pose So all the poses for that or constraints for that are built from that data. But now you drag and drop this skeleton onto your model and you repostion bones and the new starting point is x:45,y:5, z:5 is now rotates from that to x:0,y:90,z0. Ya know? It is possible that I'm not sure what the question is now that I deleted it by accident:) Mike Fitz www.3dartz.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mtpeak2 Posted July 4, 2005 Share Posted July 4, 2005 Will use the index finger as an example. Index 1 orients like index finger (control bone), so no matter how you position index 1, if you position the index finger the same way in bones mode, the pose will work properly. Same goes for the roll handles, they need to be pointing up in relation to the hand. The pose uses transform data not bone position. If you look at the transform data in the bones folder of your model for each bone, you will see that all the transform information is set to 0. I think you got me confused as well. If you look at the picture you will see the fingers are bent to the side. That has nothing to do with the way the bones are setup in bones mode, it's in the contraints. I'll post an example. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
3DArtZ Posted July 4, 2005 Share Posted July 4, 2005 Unless he has errant data in the constraints channel(off set or otherwise). I would just redo the set up from scratch to be sure there is nothing screwey or changed from the original. Mike Fitz www.3dartz.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mtpeak2 Posted July 4, 2005 Share Posted July 4, 2005 This is what I thought he meant, but I could be wrong. This is the hand clench of KeeKat model, this happen to all models with the 2001 rig. If you create an action or pose for a TSM rig, this will also happen. The only way to fix this is by editing the pose, you need to add keyframes between 0% and 100%. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mtpeak2 Posted July 4, 2005 Share Posted July 4, 2005 It also could be the positioning of the hidden finger bones in bones mode. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
3DArtZ Posted July 4, 2005 Share Posted July 4, 2005 Ah, I see what your saying mark. Why is the long bone moving other than just it's roll handle? I have not taken a look the raw 2001 rig in a while, but I thought I remember the set up for the fingers working by rotating only the roll handle.... Mike Fitz www.3dartz.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mtpeak2 Posted July 4, 2005 Share Posted July 4, 2005 No, index 1 orients like (so you can position the finger) and index 2 & 3 roll like (to bend the rest of the finger). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
3DArtZ Posted July 4, 2005 Share Posted July 4, 2005 The hidden bones seem like a likely culprit... I think that the setup is destined to have problems if you use it. Probably why I never put it in my own finger set ups. Mike Fitz www.3dartz.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mouseman Posted July 5, 2005 Author Share Posted July 5, 2005 You guys are looking at the right problem. Thanks for looking into it. The Kee-Kat hand animation is similar to the behavior I am getting, though the fingers go one way and then the other. My first attempt at modifying the relationships didn't go well, though I wasn't paying close attention to what I was doing. Unfortunately I won't have any time to try the suggestions until Wednesday night. I'll try it then and let you know what I get. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mouseman Posted July 8, 2005 Author Share Posted July 8, 2005 I've been looking around the rig, but poses have changed lots since I've last looked at them. Hopefully I'll have more time to poke around this weekend. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mouseman Posted July 9, 2005 Author Share Posted July 9, 2005 In looking at the relationships, I'm very confused. When I open "Left Hand Clench Relationships" / "Relationship1", I see bones with channels under them. There seems to be a key in frame 0 and in frame 3000 (SMPTE 01:40:00, which is 100 minutes). If I move the time indicator in the timeline, I do not see the fingers move in the "Relationship1" window that I've opened. I can't figure out how to edit things. None of this sounds like the manual page: http://www.hash.com/htmlHelp/v11.1/CustomH...lationships.htm The basic relationships for the curving of the fingers in another thing I'm looking into. Under "Setup Relationships" -> "Basic Setup Relationships" -> "Relationship1", I see constraints. "Left Middle F 1" has an "Orient Like ..|Left Middle Finger". This shows a key in frame 0 and in frame 3000. What happened to 0 to 100? I notice when I create a blank action, then enable "Show Fingers", then rotate the fingers individually, that I get decent behavior. So I have hope that if I can figure out how to modify the relationships I might be able to get good finger movement. But the interface for modifying the "Left Hand Clench" (and Right Hand Clench) relationships confuses me. Am I totally overlooking something? Have I RTFMed in all the wrong places? Or is the manual lacking? Or do I have something configured wrong? Thanks for any ideas! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mtpeak2 Posted July 9, 2005 Share Posted July 9, 2005 To edit the hand clench poses, turn show finger in the user properties of your model and right click on the hand clench poses and choose edit relationship. Now you should be in an action window. Make sure you open your pose slider window. Find the hand pose you are editing, it should be at 100% and highlighted in red. Adjust the finger bones (these bones drive the relations that are made in the basic setup relation to the geometry bones) use the roll handle or rotate them as needed to get the fingers to bend (just as you would if you were creating an action). There is nothing for you to edit in the relationship folder, it's just an action of the finger bones. I'll take a look at your model if you want and I'll fix it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mouseman Posted July 17, 2005 Author Share Posted July 17, 2005 Life has been busy, but I finally had time to look into this more. It looks like whenever you tilt a bone from 0 degrees in one frame to 90 degrees a second or so later in the timeline, it does so smoothly. Also, if you rotate a bone from 0 degrees to 90 degrees, that works well, too. However, if you both tilt and rotate a bone, the tilting and rotating interact. The tilting is no longer smooth. The attached project demonstrates this phenomena. I believe this means either: 1. It is a huge mistake for the AM2001 rig to use a single bone for both tilting the fingers and using the side effect of rotation to key other bones to rotate, since tilting and rotation affect each other in undesirable ways. 2. There may be some setting to tell the finger bone to always apply the tilting first, then the bone rotation. Anyone have opinions on this? Tilt_Rotate.prj Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mtpeak2 Posted July 17, 2005 Share Posted July 17, 2005 This is a problem that has been bugging me also. Since you brought the topic up again, I thought I'd try again at an alternative setup for the easy finger control. Here's a clip of it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mouseman Posted July 17, 2005 Author Share Posted July 17, 2005 I'm assuming you are in agreement that it is inherently problematic to use tilting (I'm not sure that's the best word for it, though) and rotation to control bending and rotation, as they interact unappetizingly. Your setup certainly looks cleaner. Of course it will be incompatible with the AM2001 rig, but I think we can agree that that rig is broken for the fingers, anyways. In your model, the bones for the knuckles look the same as the 2001 rig, so the difference must be in the control bone, and it looks like there is an added NULL bone. Care to give a summary of how you did it? (And is anyone from Hash interested in creating a new version of the AM rig to fix this for the next release?) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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