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Squetchy Thom


itsjustme

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Another thing I noticed when I first looked at your rig but forgot to mention is that when the FK arms are being used it is not to intuitive to position the hand, as you have to animate the forearm's x rotation, and the biceps angle and roll handle. It would probably be better to use a rotate limit constraint, and chaining the FK forearm control bone to its parent. See right arm of attachment. In v13 I'll try and make it so that the forearm manipulator can reflect this limit so that it will look similar to how you had it, but behave like my example.

You might say, well if you want to position the hand why not just use Ik arms? Well the reason is that FK arm motion handles swinging motion on the interpolated frames much more naturally. With this method you get good swinging motion, and intuitive posititioning of the arm. It may be that the animator wants a true fk positioning feel, if that is the case then he can use the rotate manipulator, or if this style is used often enough a pose could set the arms to default to the rotate manipulators. I tend to think though that this probably won't be the case.

 

Also I think that the FK to Ik pose should be On/Off now as with Bob's new FK/IK switch feature in v13 you shouldn't need to transition between the two styles anymore. v12 you can handle this with make keyframe.

 

I'll play somemore.

 

Cool stuff!

[attachmentid=10394]

Squetch_Rig_beta_10_24_2005_right_arm_fk.zip

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If this is going to be a true IK/FK on/off switched rig, there should be no need for an IK setup and an FK setup, your setups are squetched together correct or are they separated, can they blend one squetched and one not. If blending is not possible in the squetch, there is no need for multiple setups. This would greatly reduce the size of the rig.

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it is not to intuitive to position the hand, as you have to animate the forearm's x rotation, and the biceps angle and roll handle. It would probably be better to use a rotate limit constraint, and chaining the FK forearm control bone to its parent. See right arm of attachment. In v13 I'll try and make it so that the forearm manipulator can reflect this limit so that it will look similar to how you had it, but behave like my example.

 

Most of the characters I've seen had a similar FK arm manipulation...I was going for a true FK making nothing move unless you specifically moved it, but, I have to agree that it is more intuitive the way you have it. You would have to be more conscious of what was moving where with a true FK. The v13 addition will be very cool.

 

Also I think that the FK to Ik pose should be On/Off now as with Bob's new FK/IK switch feature in v13 you shouldn't need to transition between the two styles anymore. v12 you can handle this with make keyframe.

 

Not a problem, I left it as a percentage pose until everything was nailed down. Easy change. Thanks for spending so much time on this, Noel.

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If this is going to be a true IK/FK on/off switched rig, there should be no need for an IK setup and an FK setup, your setups are squetched together correct or are they separated, can they blend one squetched and one not. If blending is not possible in the squetch, there is no need for multiple setups. This would greatly reduce the size of the rig.

 

If you use the sliders for your squetch, the control structure will resize to accomodate it. You can blend just about anything at the moment. I haven't had time yet to think about the changes that the new on/off method will prompt, but I'm sure it's going to change a few things. Thanks for taking a look, Mark. If you think of any modifications, flag me down.

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So, what your saying is that you have to animate the squetch between blending of setups.

 

The squetch will be maintained across setups, so you shouldn't have to adjust anything.

 

One thing I noticed is that you turned off the y rotation of the ball_rotate_right_controller, now you can't pivot the foot there.

 

D'oh, I'll re-enable that...I don't remember what I was thinking at the time, but, it should be able to rotate on that axis as well. Thanks, Mark!

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The squetch will be maintained across setups, so you shouldn't have to adjust anything.

 

What I'm saying is that if I want to be squetched in FK, but not in IK, I would have to animate the squetch using the sliders. It would have be nice to blend IK/FK setups and have the squetch blend automaticly as well.

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Ooooo, that's new. I'll fix it. I think it's the result of the elbow changes...I'll take a look at it. Thanks, Mark!

 

What I'm saying is that if I want to be squetched in FK, but not in IK, I would have to animate the squetch using the sliders. It would have be nice to blend IK/FK setups and have the squetch blend automaticly as well.

 

If we stayed with the blending IK/FK method, but since they are going to the on/off it would jump. Not a bad idea though, Mark.

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  • Hash Fellow

A complex rig, I'm not familiar with it yet, but here are four things i notice in my initial look...

 

-when lifting the heel (IK foot), the toe doesn't appear to stay put. Part of it may be because the origin of that controller is rather unanatomically too far forward.

 

-moving the shoulder bones seems to stretch the skin between the elbow and shoulder but doesn't seem to take the arm with it in a natural fashion

 

-rotating the hips on Y causes the IK feet to roll. The IK feet really should stay put.

 

-When I rotate the hand on Z the mesh twisting is all happening above the elbow, rather than inthe forearm where it normally occurs.

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-when lifting the heel (IK foot), the toe doesn't appear to stay put. Part of it may be because the origin of that controller is rather unanatomically too far forward.

 

I think it's more of a target issue, but, I'll look it over.

 

-moving the shoulder bones seems to stretch the skin between the elbow and shoulder but doesn't seem to take the arm with it in a natural fashion

 

That's something I've got to improve...it's tough keeping everything in separate pieces and getting it all to act correctly. I'll get that fixed.

 

-rotating the hips on Y causes the IK feet to roll. The IK feet really should stay put.

 

I must have changed something since the final Squetchy Thom...I'll change it back. Oh, I did...I was trying to get the tumbling better, easy fix.

 

-When I rotate the hand on Z the mesh twisting is all happening above the elbow, rather than inthe forearm where it normally occurs.

 

That's an issue with the way I assigned CP's. The forearm has four bones that could have CP's assigned to them, so there's a lot of possibilities there.

 

 

I also checked the shoulder twisting problem Mark found, it's apparently not as new as I originally thought. I'll knock it out tonight and try to get the other changes done as well.

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Here's the updated beta.

 

Changes in this version:

------------------------------------------------

 

Eliminated shoulder twisting while arms are in IK that Mark found.

 

Fixed foot rolling when rotating the hips.

 

Corrected foot rotation when using the "tumbling" pose.

 

Installed Noel's FK arm setup.

 

Fixed shoulder movement (shoulder movement assumes you aren't manually squetching the shoulder when shrugging).

 

Fixed ball rotator moving foot forward (it ended up being the parenting of the ball target).

 

Re-enabled 'Y' rotation of the ball controllers.

------------------------------------------------------

 

I still need to change the IK/FK to on/off switches...I'll have that in the next version. I checked the fixes, but that doesn't mean I didn't miss something. If anyone sees a problem, let me know.

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Seeing as this is becoming the new AM standard rig, I hope we won't be just ditching the 2001 rig. Maybe this could be called the "Sqetch" rig and the 2001 rig changed to the "simple" rig. Leaving out dates as names means it's less inclined to look dated in a few years.

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Problem, using yesterday's beta (I started working on it before today's was posted).

 

After engaging the "Tumbling" pose, and then removing it completely (deleting the channel), suddenly the FK/IK switch in the legs doesn't work. No matter what the pose slider says, the legs remain at IK until the channel runs out.

 

A movie is worth a thousand words.

 

http://www.hash.com/users/zachbg/temp/AnimationMaster001.mov

 

In addition, can I request that either (a) the IK/FK blending remain until Bob's switching changes are released, or ( b ) someone do a step-by-step on how to achieve the forthcoming switch under the current version?

 

Chor attached (you'll need to have downloaded yesterday's version from David, not Noel's version).

10_25_2005_11.13am.cho.zip

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it is not to intuitive to position the hand, as you have to animate the forearm's x rotation, and the biceps angle and roll handle. It would probably be better to use a rotate limit constraint, and chaining the FK forearm control bone to its parent. See right arm of attachment. In v13 I'll try and make it so that the forearm manipulator can reflect this limit so that it will look similar to how you had it, but behave like my example.

 

Most of the characters I've seen had a similar FK arm manipulation...I was going for a true FK making nothing move unless you specifically moved it, but, I have to agree that it is more intuitive the way you have it. You would have to be more conscious of what was moving where with a true FK. The v13 addition will be very cool.

 

Forgot to mention this; with the chained, forearm limited, method you can also lock the forearm during animation or by a pose and then it will be true FK again. I do think it should be unlocked by default though.

 

Thanks for the quick changes David!

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Just wanted to note that I got a chance to download and play with Squetchy Thom for a few minutes.

My first impression:

 

"WOW! Even I can animate with this rig!"

 

Yesterday I was concerned about the 2001 Rig going away.

Today I am no longer concerned.

 

Impressive.

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Yesterday I was concerned about the 2001 Rig going away.

 

The only concern I would have is the length of time it takes to install relative to the 2001 rig.....for newbies. Otherwise, it's a dream to use.

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The only concern I would have is the length of time it takes to install relative to the 2001 rig.....for newbies. Otherwise, it's a dream to use.

 

I think that's a "nut" that has to be cracked before it replaces the 2001 rig. The installation rig makes it a lot easier but new users will still probably find it a daunting task.

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The only concern I would have is the length of time it takes to install relative to the 2001 rig.....for newbies. Otherwise, it's a dream to use.

 

The thing that might confuse newbies would be all of the re-parenting of the bones after they have been positioned. It has been suggested that a script could accomplish it, I don't see why not. The parent of the bones are listed after the word "INSTALL" in it's name, so, I think it could be accomplished. I might have to change it a little by doing it on each bone that is moved instead of in a folder method like I have it though. If I attempt it, it will take longer than if someone that knows what they are doing does it...but, once I get this finalized I could take a stab at it. The "jEdit" macros seem like they would be capable, I know Vern was doing some experiments (at least I think it was Vern).

 

In addition, can I request that either (a) the IK/FK blending remain until Bob's switching changes are released, or ( b ) someone do a step-by-step on how to achieve the forthcoming switch under the current version?

 

I'll post two versions for the next few until everything is hammered out.

 

After engaging the "Tumbling" pose, and then removing it completely (deleting the channel), suddenly the FK/IK switch in the legs doesn't work. No matter what the pose slider says, the legs remain at IK until the channel runs out.

 

I'll take a look at that tonight, Zach. The tumbling pose is supposed to turn off the IK legs and IK arms and turn on the "orient_chest_like_hips" and "head_and_neck_orient_like_chest" poses...at least it's supposed to. It looks like I might have messed up the values in there. Thinking about it now, I shouldn't have had it disable the IK arms, I'll change that too.

 

Seeing as this is becoming the new AM standard rig, I hope we won't be just ditching the 2001 rig. Maybe this could be called the "Sqetch" rig and the 2001 rig changed to the "simple" rig. Leaving out dates as names means it's less inclined to look dated in a few years.

 

I think that all public rigs should be available on the CD...there are some really cool ones. Sometimes you want a fork, sometimes a spoon and sometimes a spork.

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After engaging the "Tumbling" pose, and then removing it completely (deleting the channel), suddenly the FK/IK switch in the legs doesn't work. No matter what the pose slider says, the legs remain at IK until the channel runs out.

 

I'll take a look at that tonight, Zach. The tumbling pose is supposed to turn off the IK legs and IK arms and turn on the "orient_chest_like_hips" and "head_and_neck_orient_like_chest" poses...at least it's supposed to. It looks like I might have messed up the values in there. Thinking about it now, I shouldn't have had it disable the IK arms, I'll change that too.

After looking at it again, it appears the IK/FK legs don't work properly regardless of the tumbling pose; as long as there's a value in the IK/FK legs pose slider's channel, the legs are stuck in IK. Which is a bit of a bummer.

 

Also, is there any reason the FK legs aren't rigged the same way as the FK arms (with a limited kinematic chain)?

 

I wonder whether the neck control is all that necessary. I've gotten used to the Raf system, in which the translation of the head control sets the rotation of the neck. Is there a reason that's not being used? It would mean one less control to worry about.

 

Also, I'm finding it very difficult to find control bones in the PWS with the naming convention you use. One of the reasons I like to put "left" and "right" in the front of bone names is that they all congregate together in the PWS. Makes all the bones in the left arm, for instance, much easier to find. Currently, I have to look for, say, "bicep" then figure out if I want left or right; then I move all the way down past "calf" left and right, "chest_FK," "foot" left/right/IK/FK (yes I'm actually using all of them!), to find "forearm," by which time my puny brain has once again forgotten the side on which I'm working. If "Left" and "Right" were at the front of each of these, at the very least I wouldn't have "chest" and the opposite sides in the middle of the list.

 

Enough for now? ;)

 

And a little tumble. It goes from FK arms and IK legs, to FK arms and legs, to IK arms and FK legs, to full FK again. It should go back to IK legs upon landing, but that's currently broken (see above), and that's why the end isn't as good as the beginning (not that the beginning is all that great shakes).

 

I found it pretty easy to do. Once the FK/IK leg switching is fixed, and the new auto-keyframing from v13 is available, this will be a thing of beauty.

tumble_mp4.mov

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After looking at it again, it appears the IK/FK legs don't work properly regardless of the tumbling pose; as long as there's a value in the IK/FK legs pose slider's channel, the legs are stuck in IK. Which is a bit of a bummer.

 

That'll narrow my search down some, thanks Zach. I should have it fixed in the next version/tomorrow morning.

 

Also, is there any reason the FK legs aren't rigged the same way as the FK arms (with a limited kinematic chain)?

 

That's an easy fix, it'll be in it tomorrow...I just didn't think about it.

 

I wonder whether the neck control is all that necessary. I've gotten used to the Raf system, in which the translation of the head control sets the rotation of the neck. Is there a reason that's not being used? It would mean one less control to worry about.

 

It wouldn't take much to add a pose for that...do you mean the rotation of the head controlling the neck rotation on the 'Z' axis and the translation of the head control tilting the neck with it?

 

Also, I'm finding it very difficult to find control bones in the PWS with the naming convention you use.

 

Not a problem, it's an easy fix. I can be myopic sometimes, that should have been obvious. It'll be in the next version.

 

Thanks for spending so much time on this, Zach.

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  • Hash Fellow

A couple notes:

 

-as far as I can tell, the the z-axis on the finger controllers serves no purpose. It doesn't get me to any pose that the x and y axi didn't. Why not incorporate the finger curling functionality into that axis and eliminate the separate finger curling bone. this would reduce PWS clutter.

 

- I second Zach's comment aout the naming convention. right_hand_pinky would be a useful order I think. That would be a genuine usability plus for this rig.

 

- Is there a scheme to the difference between a bone labeled "control" and one labeled "controller" and one without either. If there isn't, eliminating that one word would help PWS readibilty also.

 

-Heel raising still doesn't leave the toe in place. I really think it's too far forward also.

 

-I would prefer to see much smaller control bones. they really shouldn't stick out of the character in most instances. From a character pose judging standpoint it's distracting... it's altering the apparent silhouette of the character. I realize they dont' render like that... but we dont' animate in rendered mode.

 

-I have seen shoulder controls that operate like these in that they arc up for a ways and then sort of extend upwards, but i'm not sure I see the anatomical premise for it. Is there a reason for this convention?My shoulders don't do that; I can hunch them all the way up to my neck.

 

- It's not an issue on a character like Thom who has only one spine bone, but I"m concerned about how this torso control will translate to characters with more. I don't see the scarecrow doing well with one spine bone. In particular I'd like to see an IK spine; they make good posing way easier. I think FK spines are responsible for a lot of very stiff CG characters .

 

- Is there a document that explains the proper use of the squetch controls? I haven't had much luck with them yet

 

Ok, that was more than a couple.

 

Thanks for your hard work David (and everyone else), on this rig!

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-as far as I can tell, the the z-axis on the finger controllers serves no purpose. It doesn't get me to any pose that the x and y axi didn't. Why not incorporate the finger curling functionality into that axis and eliminate the separate finger curling bone. this would reduce PWS clutter.

 

The 'Z' axis on the fingers doesn't do anything at the moment...I used the floating finger controls because I hated bending a finger and accidentally rolling it at the same time, but, I can understand uncluttering the PWS. I'll change that.

 

- Is there a scheme to the difference between a bone labeled "control" and one labeled "controller" and one without either. If there isn't, eliminating that one word would help PWS readibilty also.

 

Sometimes I just have to have a different name...I start throwing things around and I just need it to be different. A bone may start out as the main controller and then end up not being, what names would you like? That would be any easy change.

 

-Heel raising still doesn't leave the toe in place. I really think it's too far forward also.

 

The controller isn't directly moving the geometry, there's an underlying bone that is farther back that does the actual bending that has an "orient like" constraint on it...so, the location of the controller isn't causing it. I will move it though and move the underlying bone to see if I can get it right.

 

-I would prefer to see much smaller control bones. they really shouldn't stick out of the character in most instances. From a character pose judging standpoint it's distracting... it's altering the apparent silhouette of the character. I realize they dont' render like that... but we dont' animate in rendered mode.

 

I was trying to make it easy to grab a control, I can resize them though.

 

-I have seen shoulder controls that operate like these in that they arc up for a ways and then sort of extend upwards, but i'm not sure I see the anatomical premise for it. Is there a reason for this convention?My shoulders don't do that; I can hunch them all the way up to my neck.

 

No reason really, the biggest problem I was having was that since all of the bones squetch, the arm would get longer and shorter as the shoulders shrugged. I'll revisit that.

 

- It's not an issue on a character like Thom who has only one spine bone, but I"m concerned about how this torso control will translate to characters with more. I don't see the scarecrow doing well with one spine bone. In particular I'd like to see an IK spine; they make good posing way easier. I think FK spines are responsible for a lot of very stiff CG characters .

 

Some characters could get away with just CP weighting, but, my thinking was putting in COGS as needed for additional spine segments. COGS seem like they could be easily imported pre-configured modules that could be plugged in where needed...at least that's what I was thinking. Do you have an example of the type of spine you'd like, Robert?

 

- Is there a document that explains the proper use of the squetch controls? I haven't had much luck with them yet

 

There's no document at the moment, but, it should be easy enough to explain here.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

First, the sliders resize the control structure so that the rig should animate as it would un-squetched. If you expose the nulls and use them to squetch things, it is independent of the control structure (except the torso nulls, they move the control structure with them)...so, for most things, the sliders would probably be the method of choice when squetching the limbs unless you were doing something like grabbing the elbow and pulling it out of shape...the Loons will probably use the exposed nulls when animating, I'm thinking.

 

The squetch sliders are set up in levels, the base level (with "base_controls" in the name) will squetch a bone indicated, but will also squetch any child of that bone as well. The next level up is labeled as "individual", it will squetch the bone indicated and compensate for the hierarchy so that only the bone labeled will squetch (it is actually using the "base_controls" to do this). The highest slider in this setup will squetch the whole limb, presently named something like "arm_right_IKFK_SQUETCH". There are similar controls for each arm, hand, finger, leg and foot.

 

The head and torso squetching is accomplished using the nulls that can be exposed using the "Squetch_Controls/Head_and_Torso/HIDE" on/off poses. The torso nulls do move the control structure, so, it should still animate as normal when squetched.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

I'll try to get as many of these done as I can tonight, but I may not get to them all until tomorrow. Thanks for spending so much time on this, Robert.

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Maybe It's too late, but I for example prefer control bones that stick out from the geometry for animating, I also like my nulls big so that I can find them (so please, do not reduce the bones if that is not absolutely necessary)

 

Of course, 'tis is a question of the oppinion...

 

drvarceto

 

p.s. I haven't been around the forum for a few days and I like changes that happened to Thom (This rig is getting better and better)

 

David, I can't thank you enough for all the effort that you are investing in this, you have one very devoted fan!

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I wonder whether the neck control is all that necessary. I've gotten used to the Raf system, in which the translation of the head control sets the rotation of the neck. Is there a reason that's not being used? It would mean one less control to worry about.

 

It wouldn't take much to add a pose for that...do you mean the rotation of the head controlling the neck rotation on the 'Z' axis and the translation of the head control tilting the neck with it?

 

Yes, I think so. Honestly, I hadn't thought about the neck's Z-axis rotation, just the tilting. I personally can't think of a situation where one would want separate control over the neck's Z-axis, but maybe others would. (It certainly isn't possible anatomically to twist one's neck without turning one's head!) :lol:

 

Some characters could get away with just CP weighting, but, my thinking was putting in COGS as needed for additional spine segments. COGS seem like they could be easily imported pre-configured modules that could be plugged in where needed...at least that's what I was thinking.

I'm afraid I have no idea what this means. :) Aren't cogs essentially fan bones? Or is there a control element to them as well? I've never read Mike's tutorials, forgive me.

 

Robert, are you asking for spine segment isolation à la the TSM rigs? I think you can already achieve that in the current rig--the only question is how it would translate (no pun intended) to a character with a more complex spine. Perhaps once the rig has been plugged into a more complex character, we'll have a better idea.

 

I will say that the one major difference is that when you translate the upper chest and lower hips bones, you get an automatic stretch, as opposed to spine movement/rotation. This took some getting used to and could be limiting for non-stretchy characters.

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A comment on the ease of installation issue (in my opionion of course) -

 

You need to have a uber-good tutorial. Have a zero-level newbie (at the determined level of pre-req) try your tutorial and note the sticking spots. Once someone moves beyond this zero-level, they start to quickly put things from conscious to unconscious. An example of this is driving a car. When your folks took you out for your first try at driving, you actually were told "look left, look right, clear, go". After a couple of weeks your head just swings around without thought. AM and cars are similar in this aspect - you do alot of things unconsciously when using AM. My point? Some of the tasks that you lay out as simple steps in your installation guide/tutorial may be too big for a zero-level moron like myself. Step 17 - Assign geometry to geometry bones. You experienced riggers instinctively assign points based on experience. Perhaps you could break this down a bit and help us to learn the "how" and the "why". The tech talk video series is excellently produced. Perhaps the Hash staff could produce an extended "Installing the 2005 Rig" video and perhaps one on "Animating with the 2005 Rig".

 

I/we have also found, and this is no crack on David, that programmers/technicians often are not the best authors for documentation and seldom good on tutorials. This kind of author understands the technical aspects of the system but is capable of seeing the system through the eyes of a moron.

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Aren't cogs essentially fan bones?

 

Yessir, fan bones. What I'm thinking is kind of like when a single bone controls a chain of bones...like a tail, or a snake. I think COGS can be put on any "geom" bone in the rig and used for fan bones and such...the controlling "geom" bone will provide any squetching. The reason I was thinking COGS is that they would be a lot better than a single bone for helping to control complex meshes. At least that's what I was thinking...you don't think so, Zach? Maybe I'm misunderstanding what Robert was saying...anyone have an example?

 

Maybe It's too late, but I for example prefer control bones that stick out from the geometry for animating, I also like my nulls big so that I can find them (so please, do not reduce the bones if that is not absolutely necessary)

 

Maybe a show of hands on this one? Reduce the size of the controls so that they don't stick out of the body, keep them the same size or make them bigger (I just thought I'd include every option)?

 

I/we have also found, and this is no crack on David, that programmers/technicians often are not the best authors for documentation and seldom good on tutorials. This kind of author understands the technical aspects of the system but is capable of seeing the system through the eyes of a moron.

 

The documentation hasn't happened in a real way yet, once this gets finalized I'll have my hands full of that as well as a few other things. I've been debating automating the re-parenting of the bones using a script or something, it would take me a little longer to figure that out. Someone that does that kind of thing in their sleep would get it done faster than I could. A video tutorial couldn't hurt, or a WINK...I've only made two video tutorials, I think I did alright, but that doesn't mean someone else couldn't do better. Mark (mtpeak2) rocks the house on installation, maybe if he has time he could knock one out when this gets finalized. Or if there are any budding tutorial makers that want to take a stab at it. I know I would definitely defer to someone with better animating chops than myself for the "how to animate" tutorial.

 

Since I'm not going to have all of the changes done this morning, I'll hold off and give it one more day. I'd feel better if I don't give you half-implemented changes.

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David (and Crew);

 

My comment are only intended to show that complexity can be accounted for in many ways. You can choose to combat complexity in a product (your rig) through education. You don't have to make something simple for simple people to use it - just raise the audience's understanding.

 

Thanks folks for the exceptional work your doing.

 

Bill

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Have a zero-level newbie (at the determined level of pre-req) try your tutorial and note the sticking spots.

 

...or you could give an uber-level newbie Rodney-type guy access to all of your screenshots taken while you build/install the rig and he would attempt to put text to the process here in the Rigging & Relationships forum. The experts could tweak still further and then someone with a bit of voice talent could take that product and narrate the whole thing. (uber-level newbie Rodney-types don't do voicework much)

 

Well... something like that anyway.

I guess the goal would be to make a TAoA:M type exercise out of it eventually too.

 

Rodney

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  • Hash Fellow

 

Robert, are you asking for spine segment isolation à la the TSM rigs?

Yes, although it's not isolation of individual segments, it's independence of the hips and torso. The rest of the spine is interpolated between them.

I will say that the one major difference is that when you translate the upper chest and lower hips bones, you get an automatic stretch, as opposed to spine movement/rotation. This took some getting used to and could be limiting for non-stretchy characters.

The spine would only stretch if you had "stretchy spine" turned on. With it off the spine would always maintain it's original length, no matter how you curved it.
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The spine would only stretch if you had "stretchy spine" turned on. With it off the spine would always maintain it's original length, no matter how you curved it.

 

All I would have to do for that is give the squetch an on/off switch. I was thinking about doing that in places like the torso and neck...probably the shoulders as well.

 

Sorry I "went dark" for a day...I'm going to try to have something posted tomorrow. Yeah, I said it before, but this time it should happen barring any major calamity. So far, the foot sliding when the heel was lifted is fixed (the height of the underlying control bone was the problem, but I also moved the location of the visible controller), I have renamed all the bones and poses (I think it was 350 bones or so and I don't know the number of poses...a lot), set the neck to aim at and roll like the head bone (without losing any previous functions), got rid of being able to use the IK hands and feet in FK (it would become unnecessary with an on/off IK/FK switchover), put a limited kinematic chain on the FK legs, got rid of the tumbling pose temporarily (it'll come back as an on/off switch on the version that gets the on/off IK/FK arms and legs), changed the finger curling controls to be on the 'Z' rotation of the finger controllers themselves....a couple of other things that have slipped my mind as well. I still have to finish the shoulders and see about the IK spine...and put in the on/off for squetch in some areas, like the torso and possibly the shoulders and upper arms.

 

Anyway, I'll try to get the rest done tonight.

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Okay, I stepped in something, so not everything is done yet. I thought I'd post what I have to make sure those things are working for you. The renaming introduced a few problems that took me a while to track down. However, the things to look at in this version would be:

 

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The controls are resized (are they too small, not small enough, taste like vegetables...etc)

 

The finger curling is now controlled by rolling the finger controllers on their 'Z' axis.

 

I'm not sure about the shoulders...it's temporary in my mind, but, see if it's an improvement in any way to you.

 

The head/neck is different/better...moving the head controller will aim the neck and if you want the neck to squetch it now uses the head controller, but you need to activate the squetch in the "Animation_Controls/Squetch_Controls/Head_and_Torso/" with the "neck_SQUETCH" slider.

 

All bones and poses are renamed...should be like what was requested.

 

Heel raising appears to work correctly now.

 

The "Tumbling" pose was left out since it was problematic (it will be put back in once I get the IK/FK switch to an on/off). For tumbling, just go to FK legs, "orient_chest_like_hips" and "orient_head_like_chest"...that's what that pose turned on.

 

The FK legs now are a limited kinematic chain.

 

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

Definitely don't consider this a final, but, use it to see if any direction I've started down isn't working. I'll tackle this some more tonight. I'll do some cleanup and see if I can improve the shoulders and update the spine.

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Looking good!

I've got some more suggestions.

 

You could use manipulator options to have bones like "hips lower controller" that don't usually translate not be able to translate.

left_toes_IK_manual_pointer is another one I noticed.

 

I may be wrong here, but I bet you could get away with just one chain in the arms and legs, ie do away with the "r/l arm/leg ik elbow/knee" system if the ik system just did an ik constraint on the "bicep right fk controller" to the Ik hand target. Would make it much more straight forward.

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You could use manipulator options to have bones like "hips lower controller" that don't usually translate not be able to translate. left_toes_IK_manual_pointer is another one I noticed.

 

The "hips_lower_controller" does allow for the squetching of the lower torso...I could put a "rotate only" on that and put another null that can be exposed when squetching that. I'll do that. The "left_toes_IK_manual_pointer" being able to translate is a left-over from being able to use the IK feet in FK, I'll lock that down again.

 

I may be wrong here, but I bet you could get away with just one chain in the arms and legs, ie do away with the "r/l arm/leg ik elbow/knee" system if the ik system just did an ik constraint on the "bicep right fk controller" to the Ik hand target. Would make it much more straight forward.

 

I think you're right...I'll try that tonight. Thanks, Noel!

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I will say that the one major difference is that when you translate the upper chest and lower hips bones, you get an automatic stretch, as opposed to spine movement/rotation. This took some getting used to and could be limiting for non-stretchy characters.

The spine would only stretch if you had "stretchy spine" turned on. With it off the spine would always maintain it's original length, no matter how you curved it.

 

Actually, now that I re-read this I'm not sure if Zach was refering to TSM or Squetchy Thom. Which was it? I was referring to TSM.

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Yeah, I was talking about how things work in the Squtech rig [sic]. There's a pose slider to control stretch in TSM2.

 

You could use manipulator options to have bones like "hips lower controller" that don't usually translate not be able to translate. left_toes_IK_manual_pointer is another one I noticed.

 

The "hips_lower_controller" does allow for the squetching of the lower torso...I could put a "rotate only" on that and put another null that can be exposed when squetching that. I'll do that.

 

No, no, no! Why have two controllers for a function that is currently taken care of by one?

 

Here's a character with the kind of spine which Robert is talking about, where the hips and the torso can move indepedently (translation as well as rotation).

Shaggy_w_Raf_arms_Rigged.zip

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Here's a character with the kind of spine which Robert is talking about, where the hips and the torso can move indepedently (translation as well as rotation).

 

I love that torso control.

 

I like how you control the shoulders by moving the upper arm. I would prefer if it had a translate limit to keep it inside the mesh but it's a nice simplified solution to the shoulder controls.

 

I should add that I really love everything else about the rig that I've used so far. Gonna test some more.

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No, no, no! Why have two controllers for a function that is currently taken care of by one?

 

I'll put it back like it was....I think Noel was just thinking about preventing accidental squetching.

 

Here's a character with the kind of spine which Robert is talking about, where the hips and the torso can move indepedently (translation as well as rotation).

 

Thanks, Zach. I've been looking at several models like that...I'll get it done as soon as I can. I figure I should add at least one more spine segment as well, how many segments do you want the standard to be?

 

I like how you control the shoulders by moving the upper arm. I would prefer if it had a translate limit to keep it inside the mesh but it's a nice simplified solution to the shoulder controls.

 

I'll see about trying it that way, Ed.

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I figure I should add at least one more spine segment as well, how many segments do you want the standard to be?

/me defers to someone who actually knows something about rigging :D

 

Please understand, I'm not trying to turn your rig into something it isn't... just offering ideas and so on.

:)

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Please understand, I'm not trying to turn your rig into something it isn't... just offering ideas and so on.

 

I don't think you're doing that, Zach. You (and everyong else) have been very helpful and I appreciate it. I'm just trying to give you something that will do the job you need done. I don't want you to run into a wall somewhere during production because of a rig limitation or struggle to get the movement you're after. Personally, I think one more spine segment would definitely need to be added...more than that is the debate in my mind.

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I like the neck control setup now and the finger controls. The shoulder nulls seem to work OK.

Knee orient like foot Ik poses are broken.

As for the sizes of the control bones they seem fine to me but everyone has their won preferences on that.

The spine I really have no preference on that I liked your set up but like Raf's too.

I just cant wait to get this rig in another character

:lol:

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Knee orient like foot Ik poses are broken.

 

Thanks, David. I didn't notice that...I'll fix it tonight.

 

The spine I really have no preference on that I liked your set up but like Raf's too.

 

I'm thinking something like the one attached here...it has the option to squetch the entire spine with a slider or you can expose the nulls to squetch an individual section manually. It also has an added segment. I put the controller out in front so that it would be easy to grab and still see what was going on in this example, it would be in the center in the actual model. If it won't do the job, let me know.

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Knee orient like foot Ik poses are broken.

 

Thanks, David. I didn't notice that...I'll fix it tonight.

 

The spine I really have no preference on that I liked your set up but like Raf's too.

 

I'm thinking something like the one attached here...it has the option to squetch the entire spine with a slider or you can expose the nulls to squetch an individual section manually. It also has an added segment. I put the controller out in front so that it would be easy to grab and still see what was going on in this example, it would be in the center in the actual model. If it won't do the job, let me know.

 

It seems like it will work fine, three spine bones should be enough for about any character. I made a couple changes an attached the file.

 

Changed stomach bone to orient 100% like hips. (It still moves when you translate chest controller). So you can roll the character.

 

Added a percentage pose to control spine stretch by translating the chest control up & down. It seems to work good at about 20% (I had to add another bone to get this to work smooth)

 

Added a chest center bone (just a small bone you can't translate to mark the origin or the chest bone.

 

Just thought I would throw a couple ideas out there.[attachmentid=10557]

test_squetch_spine_v2.zip

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It seems like it will work fine, three spine bones should be enough for about any character. I made a couple changes an attached the file.

 

Thanks for taking so much time, David! I'm definitely adding a couple of other things that I didn't to the test spine. One thing in particular is sliders to squetch each spine segment individually so that the control structure can be maintained while squetching in addition to being able to manually move around nulls.

 

Added a percentage pose to control spine stretch by translating the chest control up & down. It seems to work good at about 20% (I had to add another bone to get this to work smooth)

 

Added a chest center bone (just a small bone you can't translate to mark the origin or the chest bone.

 

That's very nice...definitely adding them. :)

 

I got the knees fixed tonight and fixed some other things that took me a long time to isolate (mistakes). I also roughed in the spine and assorted other odds and ends. I'll try to post something on Monday. Thanks again, David.

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