Willi Posted March 12, 2005 Share Posted March 12, 2005 hi people, here is a simple muscle rig. maybe someone can use it. the principle is that there is a bone that scales. make a new action with the model. muscle.mdl Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
3DArtZ Posted March 12, 2005 Share Posted March 12, 2005 very cool Wilhelm!!! I have something I want to add to this! Be back in a min! Mike Fitz www.3dartz.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bendytoons Posted March 12, 2005 Share Posted March 12, 2005 Neato. I'm using something similar in the heels of my monkey, makes 'em really flexible. One question: Are you using a kinematic constraint on the muscle instead of an aim at for a specific reason? I set mine up using aim at, so I'm curious if there's some benefit to kinematic. Thanks. Ben Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
3DArtZ Posted March 12, 2005 Share Posted March 12, 2005 Hey wilhelm, I had just at the time of your posting been messing with driving texture maps with bone movement and your model seemed like a perfect subject to try it on! Relationships, expressions, imagination oh my!!! There are a lot of things I overlooked recently and relations was one of them. Not anymore though... really useful aspect of the software! Also to Noel, thanks for the heads up with that http://www.vrcops.com/Arnold/Arnold1.mov Mike Fitz www.3dartz.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Willi Posted March 13, 2005 Author Share Posted March 13, 2005 very cool, your movie. maybe you can post your relationships. are you using expressions? Are you using a kinematic constraint on the muscle instead of an aim at for a specific reason? no. i thought that the kinematic constraint is the only one that can use "scale to reach", but an aim at constraint ( i realized now) is also good for that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
3DArtZ Posted March 13, 2005 Share Posted March 13, 2005 Wilhelm, thanks. I plan on posting something up this week about how to achieve that result. I would like to use your model so let me know if that's not cool. Otherwise I'm gonna use it.... This particular set up used a relationship between the forearm bone and the texture map. Mike Fitz www.3dartz.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Willi Posted March 14, 2005 Author Share Posted March 14, 2005 sure, use it! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
seven Posted May 3, 2005 Share Posted May 3, 2005 Willi having done something good - he gets two guys answering him. I believe most does not understand what is so smart with this and how to set it up using Aim at or Kinematic? You guys knowing this - can you not try to explain what is so good with this - and what is missing in eg. the 2001 rig. And perhaps explaining the thinking behind this muscle rig. Thanks in advance! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bendytoons Posted May 3, 2005 Share Posted May 3, 2005 You guys knowing this - can you not try to explain what is so good with this - and what is missing in eg. the 2001 rig. And perhaps explaining the thinking behind this muscle rig. This rig, and similar ones use "stretchy" bones that scale as well as rotate & translate. The control points assigned to the "stretchy" bone stretch right along with it. This is great for simple bicep sqaushing or other places where you want some scaling of control points in response to skeletal rotation. The way you set it up is to use the "stretchy" bone kinda like a muscle. In the case of my heel deformer, the "stretchy" bone is a child of the foot, and placed at the back of the heel. It Aims At a null on the back of the calf. The scale to reach option in the aim at properties is turned on. Now the "stretchy" bone scales as well as rotating to keep Aimed at the target null. The control points assigned to it stretch as well. I can't get at A:M just now or I'd give you a screen grab. Ben Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
seven Posted May 3, 2005 Share Posted May 3, 2005 I can't get at A:M just now or I'd give you a screen grab. Hope for that screen grab. Another question: Are they useful for face rigging? Some example, perhaps... Are there any tutorials on the rigging - the thinking behind rigging? Are you using just relationships for rigging? or also expressions? I helped mtpeak2 with an expression for breathing... but perhaps that is seldom you use expressions for bones? I have been looking at Willi´s mouth rigging. http://www.hash.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=14142 And I have a problem - I cannot move the bones in the face to some other place... now the face is around origo - I want to move it some centimeters upwards. Do I have to deattach the CPs before moving it? And then attach them again on the new height? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeSanderson Posted May 4, 2005 Share Posted May 4, 2005 Hey Mike Could you Check the Link on that Movie you posted..... http://www.vrcops.com/Arnold/Arnold1.mov Not working for me! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
3DArtZ Posted May 4, 2005 Share Posted May 4, 2005 Hmm, I am baffled as to where it went. I will try and find and repost to the link. Thanks for bringing that my attention Mike Mike Fitz www.3dartz.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
3DArtZ Posted May 5, 2005 Share Posted May 5, 2005 Hey Mike Could you Check the Link on that Movie you posted..... http://www.vrcops.com/Arnold/Arnold1.mov Not working for me! Okay, fixed the link, just fyi. Mike, thanks for telling me about it. Mike Fitz www.3dartz.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dinocarl Posted May 6, 2005 Share Posted May 6, 2005 This is indeed a good muscle rig, and is the basis of the wing tutorial I did on last year's Siggraph training tapes. The straight-forward approach works great in Willi's example of a bicep, but, as I've discovered, it needs a little extra guidance when it comes to a limb or muscle group that has a larger range of motion. And that's where a path comes in. I'll post an example of what I mean. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dinocarl Posted May 6, 2005 Share Posted May 6, 2005 Here's the basic layout: There's two bones for each cross-section of the neck, one on top and one on bottom. Each of these bones Aims At and Scales to Reach a bone that is Path-constrained to a path right above and right below the neck. Each of these paths are independent of the geometry. The paths maintain the general shape of the neck and the extra hanging bones are there to control what the path does. There is one last layer of control needed, and that is for the path itself. While the hanging bones are constrained to a particular CP of the path, the path wouldn't do much good unless it was already keeping pace with the underlying control rig of the neck. So you need to add as many bones as you have in your control rig, and make sure they Orient like the bones they're supposed to emulate. This last part is a bit trickier than it sounds, because you don't actually use an Orient Like constraint, but another Aim At (Scale to Reach) contstraint to a bones that are children of the neck control rig and floating in place where the path structure rig's bones join to each other. Sound confusing? It's not that bad once you see it laid out. I've been meaning to throw together a tutorial about this and I'll do it sooner rather than later. In the meantime, check out the neck move on my tyrannosaur. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
strohbehn Posted May 10, 2005 Share Posted May 10, 2005 Hey Dinocarl, The dino neck rig appears to deform you mesh extremely well. I understand the first half of what you wrote. Here's the basic layout: There's two bones for each cross-section of the neck, one on top and one on bottom. Each of these bones Aims At and Scales to Reach a bone that is Path-constrained to a path right above and right below the neck. Each of these paths are independent of the geometry. The paths maintain the general shape of the neck I'm with you so far. the extra hanging bones are there to control what the path does. There is one last layer of control needed, and that is for the path itself. While the hanging bones are constrained to a particular CP of the path, the path wouldn't do much good unless it was already keeping pace with the underlying control rig of the neck. I get the concept, but don't get how you are controlling the shape of the paths and keeping them moving with the dino model. Which bones are the "hanging bones" you refer to? Are they the "aimer bones"? So you need to add as many bones as you have in your control rig, and make sure they Orient like the bones they're supposed to emulate. This last part is a bit trickier than it sounds, because you don't actually use an Orient Like constraint, but another Aim At (Scale to Reach) contstraint to a bones that are children of the neck control rig and floating in place where the path structure rig's bones join to each other Now you lost me completely.... Would you be willing to have another go at the last half or your explanation, or possibly posting a simplified model file of the neck rig? Thanks for showing us your techniques. Mark Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
seven Posted May 10, 2005 Share Posted May 10, 2005 Here's the basic layout: There's two bones for each cross-section of the neck, one on top and one on bottom. Each of these bones Aims At and Scales to Reach a bone that is Path-constrained to a path right above and right below the neck. Each of these paths are independent of the geometry. The paths maintain the general shape of the neck and the extra hanging bones are there to control what the path does. There is one last layer of control needed, and that is for the path itself. While the hanging bones are constrained to a particular CP of the path, the path wouldn't do much good unless it was already keeping pace with the underlying control rig of the neck. So you need to add as many bones as you have in your control rig, and make sure they Orient like the bones they're supposed to emulate. This last part is a bit trickier than it sounds, because you don't actually use an Orient Like constraint, but another Aim At (Scale to Reach) contstraint to a bones that are children of the neck control rig and floating in place where the path structure rig's bones join to each other. Sound confusing? It's not that bad once you see it laid out. I've been meaning to throw together a tutorial about this and I'll do it sooner rather than later. In the meantime, check out the neck move on my tyrannosaur. Hope you will do a WINK tutorial - they are really fast to do - you can do 70 screen captutes if you need too plus text to describe it - and it will not be more than 1 Mb... Just click the Pause key to capture what you are doing in A:M - two hours and it is done! Hope on you! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dinocarl Posted May 11, 2005 Share Posted May 11, 2005 Sorry for the confusing response, Ben, I'll try to clarify here: Let's start with this image: The Neck Control Bones are pretty straightforward. Now. the Structure bones are where it gets tricky. There are three of them, one for each Neck Control bone. These bones are what deform the throat path. You can add the path CPs these bones if you like. To get the bones to move correctly, thus deforming the path, take a look at this image: The GulletStruct bones are where the action is. Take GulletStruct3 as an example. It is the child of the Jaw. ThroatStruct3 Aims At and Scales to Reach it. That way, when the jaw moves, the spline gets longer or shorter depending. This in turn makes the whole throat move, just a little at the base and getting more extreme as it goes up the throat. This happens because all the aimer bones that are constrained to the Throat Path are set to be at very specific percentages of that path. When the path changes length, the Aimer bones slide up and down it to preserve their relative position to that percentage. Moving down the throat, we come to GulletStruct2. This bone is a child of the Head. ThroatStruct2 Aims At and Scales to Reach it so that when the head moves, ThroatStruct2 moves and, in turn, the path will follow what the head does. Similarly, GulletStruct1, a child of Neck2 has ThroatStruct1 Aiming at and Scaling to Reach it. This will give you pretty good movement already, but it has the problem of deforming the Throat Path too much. To deal with that, we add the final constraints. Translate GulletStruct1 to Neck1 and GulletStruct2 to Neck2 each 50% with Compensate Mode on (to keep them in place). By translating the GulletStruct bones to the control bone that is the parent of their parent, the movement of the bone gets slowed and the deformations of the path aren't as extreme. Finally, check out this last image: The last thing to add is the ThroatMover bones. These bones are children are ThroatStruct bones. The idea of them is to have the actual CPs of the path attached to them so that the path can still be deformed by hand. I only added two in this example, but I really should have one for every CP on the path (minus the CPs at the ends of the path which are attached to the Jaw and the Chest respectively). I hope that was a little clearer. seven, I have been seeing a lot of these WINK tutorials around on the forums, and they seem pretty cool. Can you post some info about where I can find out more about them? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
seven Posted May 11, 2005 Share Posted May 11, 2005 seven, I have been seeing a lot of these WINK tutorials around on the forums, and they seem pretty cool. Can you post some info about where I can find out more about them? Here can be a good start point: http://www.hash.com/forums/index.php?showt...indpost&p=99372 Explaining this: Free Download, install, start Help > View Tutorial Project 1 and WINK will render the tutorial to a html-file and swf-file you have to have the Flash plugin from Macromedia installed in your browser Start A:M downsize it to 800*600 pixels or change your screen resolution WINK file > new Click AMs border to decide what to screen capture. Start capturing what you are doing in AM using the Pause Key Stop Capturing Insert text to explain Render in WINK 20 captures with a million of colors will make about 1 MB 70 captures with a 256 colors palette will make about 1 MB ZIP and upload to the Software Tutorials forum And why not start with a simple example? Explaing Willis muscle rig a bit or something about the same - but a simple one - so everyone can get it!!! Rigging for dummies - that will be a good beginning! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
strohbehn Posted May 11, 2005 Share Posted May 11, 2005 dinocarl, Thanks so much for the extra effort to make things clear for me. I hope to dig into it in the next few days to sort it all out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
seven Posted May 12, 2005 Share Posted May 12, 2005 The last thing to add is the ThroatMover bones. These bones are children are ThroatStruct bones. The idea of them is to have the actual CPs of the path attached to them so that the path can still be deformed by hand. Looks good to me! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
entity Posted May 13, 2005 Share Posted May 13, 2005 I have an idea... You could add dynamic bones (whereever you want jiggle) as children of your bones... and have them control the cps. So, the bones you have now control the dynamic bones. BTW you are a rigger extraordinare! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dinocarl Posted May 13, 2005 Share Posted May 13, 2005 Not a bad idea at all, Rich. Of course, I've seen Joe Williamson's Hunter, and was stunned. I didn't really get how dynamic bones worked until seven recently posted the link to the techtalk about it. I'm rendering out a sequence now (won't be done for a little while, though). Thanks for your high opinion of my rigging skills, but it's all just lifted from other people's rigs and ideas. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dinocarl Posted May 14, 2005 Share Posted May 14, 2005 Here is my first attempt at adding dynamic bones to the neck. I'm not too happy with it yet, because it's too jello-y, but it looks promising Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
3DArtZ Posted May 14, 2005 Share Posted May 14, 2005 I would think that the dynamic bones would only be on the bottom bones? if this dino was out of shape and had a lot of flab on him!!! Very cool stuff your posting! Keep it coming Mike Fitz www.3dartz.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dinocarl Posted May 14, 2005 Share Posted May 14, 2005 Thanks, Mike! Right now the dynamic bones are just on the bottom making something of a wattle. I would eventually also want to add it on the top but with stiffer settings to make it appear more muscle-like. I would also want to put it on the thigh so that there is a lot of shaking there whenever he takes a step. I tried adding cloth by way of suspension CPs on this area with a mixed results. It looked good when he was standing still, but it would distort way too much when he was walking. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bentothemax Posted May 17, 2005 Share Posted May 17, 2005 One thing i noticed about the neck of your dinosaur, I think that on the bottom of your neck is to strait, if you look at any in shape animal, you can pretty much see the vocal chords and such sticking out in the middle of then neck. Noone knows for sure (I think) but i would assume that the vocal chords would have to pretty big and noticable, if the dinosaur was going to be able to roar loud. It's really looking great though. I cant even rig a biped effectivly yet and you . . . are amazing at rigging. I've experimented with the neck of a cow . . . it was a dynamic tutorial for 3ds max, but it works the same for animation master. I didnt make the head, just a section of the neck . . . i could post the project if you want Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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