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Scottj3d

Wings

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I am wondering how to constrain the feather control bones on my wing. 1 through 3 are a chain. 4 through 8 are intended to pull the feathers (mesh) into a closed position. I am not sure which constraint to use to make the bones 4-8 stay in place on bone 2 but move inward similar to bone 3 when bone 3 is pulled into the folding position. As the lower shot shows the bones in question move with bone 3 but do not pivot as if attatched to bone 2. Is this also a problem of hierarchy where I need to drag 4-8 under bone 2 in the PWS?

W2.jpg

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If I remember correctly;

 

4-8 Translate to Bone 2 with offset

4-8 Orient Like Bone 3 with offset and percentage

 

Cheers

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I'll try that David. I assume then that you can "stack" the constraints. (That explains alot) I may not have searched right but is there a listing of what each constrant choice does? Thanks!

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Is this also a problem of hierarchy where I need to drag 4-8 under bone 2 in the PWS?

I'd personally prefer to do it this way instead of using a Translate To Bone 2. Bones 4-8 will still neeed to Orient Like Bone 3 with offsets and percentages. You can set the offsets automatically by pressing the Compensate Mode button before creating each constraint -- that is, once you set the constraint, Compensate Mode will turn itself off and you'll need to turn it on again before creating another constraint.

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;) I'm definitly gojng to flag this thread, this may help me with the lames of the Armour i am working on. :)

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Thanks for the help guy's. I haven't done any more yet as I am tinkering with the arm on my WIP post(it should probably be here). Mark if your armor is anything like mine you may want to have a look. Having a solid on the torso makes things a bit tricky as I am finding out. I'll be modeling the hybrid wing pieces in this weekend and testing the wing then. 5 days ago I thought I would abandon the rigging thing as it was "too technical" but I am starting to think I am getting it. I'm certainly more comfortable in bones mode now than I was then. I'll post my results as soon as I have some. Thanks again!

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Ok maybe I'm not getting it "yet". I played around with the suggestions to see if I get the movement I want but didn't. I basically want the 4-8 to stay as they are in the shot with them numbered and move like bone 3. When I added the translate constraints they were close to what I want but not quite. Using bone 4 as an example when translated to #3 it is connected to the joint between #2 and #3 which is okay and moves when #3 is moved but when #5 is translated to #2 it moves the bone to the joint between #1 and #2 leaving all those feathers in the open. What I am trying to do is have #4-8 each control the movement of the feather they are placed over in the shot. Perhaps this is not the right way to arrange them. If this were a bat or dragon wing it would probably be a breeze. I am planning to remove the inner feathers(right of bone 8) and replace them with a cookie cut decal on a single patch but the outer or flight feathers I want to remain as are and control them with bones. My layout looks like it is the right idea but that is from an anatomical perspective. It is probably part me not knowing how to set it up and partly the fact that the movement of the feathers being a complicated matter. I'll keep messing with it but if you guy's have any ideas I would like to know. I saw a .mov file on my 3dArtz cog tutorial that had a similar effect to what I am trying to get these to do so I'm gonna have a look at that and see if I can get anything out of that. If I (we) get these working then I shouldn't have a problem with the rest of the rig as I will have learned alot. Thanks!

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Using bone 4 as an example when translated to #3 it is connected to the joint between #2 and #3 which is okay and moves when #3 is moved but when #5 is translated to #2 it moves the bone to the joint between #1 and #2 leaving all those feathers in the open.

That's what Compensate Mode is for. When you add a Translate To constraint to a bone and turn on Compensate Mode before selecting the target, the bone isn't going to move when the constraint is created. But seriously, if you just made Bones 4-8 into children of Bone 2, you wouldn't need to worry about the Translate To contraints at all. It's less work for you, and it makes your model file a little smaller.

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Here's a rig I came up with. If your interested I'll post the rig for you to disect. And if you have any questions I'll try to explain it.

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That is exactly what I want. Man you make that look easy. Ok now my dumber question(Julian). How do I find compensate mode. And the percentage.. Is that enforcement? Mark I am interested. I'd love to disect it. Bear with me. I am a complete newbie in this area. Envy...Envy....Thanks!!!!

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I shouldn't have looked at that before going to work today. Julian never-mind the compensate mode question "I found it". But the percentage question remains. Mark (or anybody for that matter), I like that strut bone going from 1 to 3. I will call it bone 6. I am trying to duplicate that rig as I am anxiously awaiting the disection post (like a dog looking at a ham bone and drueling) I tell bone 6 to translate to bone 1 but cannot figure out how to connect it to 3 like you did. I'll keep working on it till you post the file. If you can explain it when you post it I would appreciate that. It looks similar to the arm rig I looked at on Sonofpats intelligent arm rig. I am reading all the tut's I can find but do not understand most of what they say due to lack of experience which it seems most of the tut's I am finding seem to be geared towards riggers more experienced than myself. I can't find anything that breaks down what each constraint option does. Euler limits, roll like two etc. If you guy's can point the way....

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Sorry for the delay. The setup is basicly the IK arms setup from the Hash 2001 rig. The strut bone, as you call it (hinge bone, 2001 rig), has an aim at constraint to the null with scale to reach turned on. The 3 smaller nulls are children of the strut bone which scale with the bone. The 3 small wing bones have an aim at constraint to the smaller nulls.

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Thanks a ton. I'll have a look and see if I can duplicate it eventually. I have right clicked in the action window and seen null in the list. Do I add a bone then r-click and click null then click on the bone to create a null? I can't wait to know this stuff. I am on the verge...I can feel it!!

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Just right click to create a new null, then in the PWS you need to drag it to the bone you want it to be a child of.

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Instead of using Aim At constraints to a set of nulls, I was thinking you could make Bones 4-8 children of Bone 2, and then have:

 

Bone 4 Orient Like Bone 3 with 83% enforcement

Bone 5 Orient Like Bone 3 with 67% enforcement

Bone 6 Orient Like Bone 3 with 50% enforcement

Bone 7 Orient Like Bone 3 with 33% enforcement

Bone 8 Orient Like Bone 3 with 17% enforcement

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Julian I am copying those constraints to try this weekend. Actually I'm planning to play with both possibilities. Marks wing moves nicely and I am trying to duplicate it so I will know better what I am doing. And I will need more bones to control the feathers going to the folded position. If I can make these enforcements work on my current rig. Then I will know better how to apply them to whatever rig I come up with in the end.(I just love the "strut thing"It gives a natural feeling fold when you move it in an action) It's like playing with a mechanical toy... fold in fold out pivot... I need to stop playing with it and get some assembly practice in so I can tweak my wing mesh. I'm just getting started for the weekend so when I get something together I'll post it. Thanks alot guy's!

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Julian, That was great" I had to change the values a bit (still more)but what you see here is just what you told me to do. I think I really am starting to get it. I know.."the boy who cried wolf" I had to do this as a .gif because I tried setting up a pose slider as well as trying it in the chor but the constraints must be turned off or again I must be or not be doing something to "turn it on) to animate it. Now to add the strut for more control. This "Rigging" area is great!!!!!!!!Thank's guy's....uh..I'll be back.? .?

Better.gif

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If you setup the constraints as a pose, you can turn them on in the models properties in the PWS, so they are always on.

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The problem with orient like constraints is, you can't move the bones manually if you need to adjust the position of the feathers, you would have to adjust the enforcement or offsets of the constraints. With the setup I showed you, you can adjust them by moving the smaller nulls.

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The problem with orient like constraints is, you can't move the bones manually if you need to adjust the position of the feathers, you would have to adjust the enforcement or offsets of the constraints. With the setup I showed you, you can adjust them by moving the smaller nulls.

I'm still playing with it. I need to get a better understanding of the nulls. This is all just starting to gel in my head. I'm still trying to duplicate your rig. I like the ease of the range of movement it has. It took me 3 hours of oop's close without saving,reopen and reconstrain just to finally get it on the first rig. I'm working on yours today. The thought has occurred to me to just copy and paste yours into the mesh but I want to know how to build it myself. The first one gave me a better idea of what I am doing. When I get the one like yours together (I'm ready to try it now that I've had some sleep.) I'll post it. I'm hoping to mix them but I'm not there yet. My sister saw the first one working last night and thinks I'm a genius...SHHHH!!! Guess I kinda see you guy's in a similar light. You probably whipped that up in a jiffy. I'm still slowly going "ok a null goes here and I tell it to...uh....". I'll get there! Thanks!

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Ok so all day and my brain hurts(but I like it). Introducing the "MTPeak Kinetic Wing Rig. Having been forced to gain some insight into enforcement values by Julian , I can tweak the "aim at enforcement or (as Mark said) move the nulls used by this rig to "tweak" the behavior of the feathers. Any newbies watching this thread "don't be afraid to ask questions in this area". The guy's that will help you here know thier ...STUFF!) Thanks David, Mark,Julian,Mr. Fitz and Paul. I think I really am getting it now.

MTpeakrig.gif

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Mike,I have been calling it the strut, it seem's to make it all move smoother. There are 8or9 nulls as it's children and it's set to scale to reach the null at the tip of the wing(null1) which is bound to the big feather bone or #3 if you look at the earlier post with the bone numbers(actually the #3 bone is bound to the null at the tip) by a kinematic constraint. All the feather bones are children of the #2 bone and each other than#3 are constrained with an "aim at" constraint to the 8 or 9 nulls on the strut bone. Anyways the nulls scale with it to and the bones aiming at the nulls control the cp's for the feathers so that they will fold properly when the wing is closed. By pulling on null1 the whole thing works together. I'm still assigning cp's but it appears to be just what I wanted. It's a pain to set-up when your knowledge is limited but I've been lurking your cape WIP and I don't even want to think about that(LOOK AT ALL THOSE BONES!!). One thing I found is that after closing this project, the constraints are no longer there and I have to reset them. I save the project but it doesn't seem to keep the constraints.

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Are you adding the constraints in an on/off pose? If so, go to your models properties/user properties and set it to on. That will stay on rather than turning it on in an action.

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Yes I am using an on/off pose. When I go into a choreography I see "pose sliders" and it's on but the kinematic constraint on #3 and null1 and all the aim at strut bones do not move as they do in the demo image. I havent checked to see if the model properties have an on/off option though. The PWS is getting pretty crowded and I am not used to all the user properties and thier "proper use". I'm used to the groups I use for modelling but all the other clutter is new.

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Also, looking forward to seeing it with the cp's attached.

I'm working on that. I'll need to do some fine spline tuning(or re-thinking to optimize it for the rig) and possibly some fan bones to control the mesh which I was originally planning for this weekend but spending the time learning rigging was a bigger priority. When I get it together I'll post it on my WIP.

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If you create a new action do the constraints work? Was the model already in the choreography before the constraints were made? Try deleting the model from the choreography and bringing back in.

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I added the constraints in the pose window(perhaps that is the problem) when I re-constrain it and drag it into the chor it then works. I haven't been saving the chor's though. I delete them in the PWS. I'll go open it and see if it did it again. I have the model in an isolated computer I use mainly for A.M....Ok this time it works except for a feather bone to strut null I added and constrained after already having set up the others in an earlier project close(if that makes sense)I saved the pose as wing controls and it is still there double click it and a pose window opens and that last bone is out of wack(which is better than all of them being so) or not constrained as I cant seem to find the "aim at" constraint in the PWS.

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I edited my previous post and get the same behavior in the chor the pose is off I turn it on and the wing moves right except for the last bone.

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Ok I think I figged it out. Right click model and selected edit relationship re-constrained. Closed re-opened and it's working. I appear to have multiple user properties and I believe that was the result of re-constraining by double clicking wing controls instead of choosing to edit the first relationship by right clicking on the model in the PWS.

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Hi all, I'm back. I have the wings set up with all the bones as I did for the test rig. On the right wing the null at the tip of bone 3 which bone 3 has a kinematic constraint to. I am getting a strange behavior problem. The null appears to have a kinematic to the bone but it sliding up and down the bone like a securitychain in the slot on a door. I have the same constraint set up on the left wing and it works right. When the null is dragged towards the center it pulls bone 3 with it, but it is only working that way on the left wing. On the right it slides up the bone and then pulls it in. Any suggestions? Thanks!

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